What pretty clearly happened is that certain elements pushed for NATO inclusion and (mostly exclusive!) EU trade well before 2008. Russia pushed for a more Russia friendly regime. Both sides interfered until the result became a devastating war.

So every sensible person should protest in favor of peace negotiations. But that doesn't happen. The western media portrays any peace negotiations as useless or as a ploy. I mean read the article.

[–] Skua@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (9 children)

So what do you do?

Russia could stop making all of its neighbours feel like they need protection from it, perhaps.

(mostly exclusive!) EU trade

Alright, please explain to me step-by-step how you expect Ukraine to join two separate and incompatible free trade areas. Because that's what the argument at the time was about: which FTA to join, the EU-led DCFTA or the Russia-led CISFTA

Russia pushed for a more Russia friendly regime

"The EU wanted a trade deal with Ukraine and Russia wanted to choose Ukraine's government." Why are you acting like these are equivalent?

But that doesn’t happen

I don't think it's my place to tell Ukrainians to submit to subjugation

[–] LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago (8 children)

how you expect Ukraine to join two separate and incompatible free trade areas

Well aren't you explaining it perfectly? Ukraine would have to leave the one and join the other.

And yeah I agree with all your sentiments, Ukraine should be free. But we can also agree that Russia is not acting completely randomly but out of self interest. And also that Russia is perfectly capable of invading a country and fucking up their shit. Right? We can agree that one should take Russia seriously? And be smart and careful?

It's not about Russia being right, it's about not being stupid and provoking them. Ukraine absolutely had a right to join NATO and it was absolutely clear that they would get in trouble and shouldn't have tried it. Fuckers like Stoltenberg shouldn't have encouraged it.

[–] choin@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

So "[A] provoking Russia was the reason, according to [B]". What do you say, is [A] Ukraine and is [B] Putin?

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