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I've been thinking about this for a while, and the longer I've sat with it the more uncomfortable I feel about the lyrics in Thirteenth Step.

I've loved the music on the album ever since I first heard it, and A Perfect Circle have been one of my favourite bands since I was a teenager. But the older I get, the more I hear a cruelty and vindictiveness in Maynard's lyrics on this album.

In the context of the album's theme of addiction and recovery, the lyrics of songs like The Outsider don't sit comfortably with me. It's something I've noticed more and more with Maynard's lyrics in general: they're often about his disappointment in other people, his judgement of them. On an album about addiction and recovery, there doesn't feel like there's much empathy or compassion.

I think I'm falling out of love with Thirteenth Step.

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[–] redhorsejacket@lemmy.world 7 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

First of all, there's a danger in assuming that everything an artist writes is meant to represent their thoughts on a topic. Just because it's a song doesnt change the fact that the narrative content is fictional (or "inspired by true events").

Even situating the point of view as first person doesn't mean anything, necessarily, no more so than a stand-up comic prefacing a ludicrous story with "This is true!". Is it? Maybe, maybe not. The authenticity of whether it reflects the author's lived experience or not is irrelevant in the face of "Is the joke funny?". Point of view is, at the end of the day, a storytelling device.

With The Outsider, I think there are lots of different interpretations. In my personal headcanon, I've always thought that the song's title refers to the narrator, not the character suffering from suicidal depression. I think the lyrics imply this situation has been going on for a long time, and the narrator is at the limit of their empathy. They care about the depressed individual, and they've tried in the past to help (in so far as they understand it), but, because they are an Outsider to that headspace, they literally cannot understand the victim's plight.

Perhaps you have a bottomless supply of empathy and you are able to ALWAYS react in a sensitive and caring why when someone trauma dumps on you (whether you consented to it or not). If so, congratulations, and please tell me your secrets. However, there's a reason that advice for helping people with their emotional issues almost always starts with taking stock of your own emotional needs first. Sometimes, no matter what lovely and benevolent people we are, we just aren't equipped to deal with someone else's cross to bear.

Now, I hope that the outcome of that situation is something other than "if you're gonna kill yourself, stop talking about it and do it somewhere else". Even still though, is that hugely different in spirit than people saying suicidal individuals shouldn't traumatized other people with their actions? Obviously not a 1:1 comparison here, but think of any instance of suicide by cop or a mass shooter that blows their brains out at the end of their spree. I guarantee there will be people sadly wondering why they couldn't have just driven off into the woods and blown their brains out like a civilized person.

Additionally, because this is a 3 minute song, we don't know if this is the final resolution of the relationship, or if it's a momentary lapse in the narrator's empathy. Have you ever snapped at someone and said or did something you didn't mean? Would you feel it was fair that single outburst became your entire public persona forever more? Probably not. I don't know if that's how Maynard intended it, but, frankly, I don't give a shit. This interpretation is truthful (and meaningful) to me. Maynard's interpretation, if he has one, is interesting information, but almost completely irrelevant to my enjoyment of the song.

To get out ahead of it, this depends on the outburst, before someone comes in here and misconstrues this to mean I'm implying I think Mel Gibson or Laura Schlesinger deserves another chance or something equally dumb.

Finally, for the sake of completeness, I could also make an argument that "The Outsider" refers to the suicidal individual who exists outside of the paradigm that the narrator has about life, and I could also argue that Maynard is the outsider, simply observing a plausible relationship dynamic from afar. Finally, sometimes I wonder if "The Outsider" is a voice in the depressed individual's head, essentially beating themselves up for wanting to die but not having the "courage" to pull the trigger, as it were. Frankly, that degree of ambiguity is likely intentional. As folks have mentioned, Maynard has more than a little troll in him. This is, after all, the guy who sings about overanalysis being the death of intuition and the spirit, while also structuring the number of syllables he is singing per phrase to match the Fibonacci sequence.

Sorry, wrote a lot, but The Outsider is a particularly meaningful song to me, and the apparent callousness of its lyrics is a subject I've ruminated on before.

[–] gid@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 hours ago

Thanks for this response, it was thought-provoking and I wanted to take the time to reply to you properly.

First, I'm glad The Outsider holds meaning for you. My discomfort with the song, and the album in general, is down to the way those words resonate with me, and that's based on my experiences. If you've been in a place where you've experienced someone you care about self-destructing, then I'm sorry you went through that. It's horrible. Processing that is very personal and there isn't a wrong way to do it.

I picked The Outsider as an example in my original post because it's a clear representation of the theme of disdain I feel is present in the entire album. Again, I understand this is a concept album and I shouldn't jump to the conclusion that this represents Maynard's real opinions, but I have a hard time separating him as a person from the narrator in this album because this isn't the only place Maynard has expressed such opinions. I remember interviews he gave around the time Thirteenth Step came out where he went into the meaning behind some of the songs, and he was very direct about them being about his disappointment in other people. Whether the subjects of these songs are real or imagined, I don't know, but either way it doesn't sit right with me.

It's not just on this album: a lot of Maynard's lyrics have similar themes. For example, I love the music in Passive, but the lyrics again are written from the perspective of someone angry and frustrated that other people don't meet up to their standards. Aenema is pretty misanthropic in general. In Hooker With a Penis he pushes back against his critics with "all you know about me is what I sold you", but all he's selling me is a contrarian provocateur. Whether there's a deeper self-reflection hidden between the lines of his words almost feels irrelevant: I'm believing who he's showing me, and it puts me off.

[–] celeste@kbin.earth 9 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

It can be sad, but it's also very cool how life and perspective change the way we see art. Maybe, bittersweet?

[–] gid@piefed.blahaj.zone 4 points 20 hours ago

Definitely. And I'll always love the music.

[–] tomselleck@sopuli.xyz 8 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I’ve listened to him in interviews and there are times where he comes off as very self-assured about everything he does. There’s quite a few Tool songs where he has a very similar tone as well. He’s just that kind of person. Kind of a dick.

[–] gid@piefed.blahaj.zone 8 points 20 hours ago

Yeah. Remember when he found out his wine was vegan, so he posted a picture of himself dangling bacon over one of the wine vats?

It's like he never grew out of being an edgy teenager.

[–] Jumbie@lemmy.zip 7 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

I’m going to have to listen to this again. I think it’s more about righteous anger at those that refuse to help themselves that sticks in my memory re: Maynard’s lyrics.

Perhaps now that I’m older they may hit differently.

[–] axexrx@lemmy.world 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Im goong to break from the consensu here a bit- I think everyone's missing a big piece of this album, and its right there in the title.

The 13th step refers to a long time AA member targetting new commers, exploiting their vulnerability for sex.

The album is the first person narrative of one of these sociopathic users (of heroin, but of women he picks up from NA, too) from their POV, to their victim, 'you'

'The package' is them, disillusioned with the NA program, going to a meeting to find a victim.

'Weak and powerless' is really just establishing the main character is still an addict, and usin, Their someone who is currently succumbing to the addiction.

'The noose' is them tearing down the partner. Cynical about their newfound hope, and initial successes with the program, and turning it into a chain theyll inevitably get dragged down with

Apparently they won out, as in 'blue,' the narrator is describing them relapsing together, and nodding off to watching them nod out, OD and die. 'Vanishing' is them getting over their loss, and moving on, like the smoke from the binge cleaning from the air (and the smoke having been an allusion to the smoke before fire- her nodding off being the warning sign of the fire, the OD he chose to ignore)

I think theres kind of a fork i the narative here here, or maybe weve skipped all the way onto the next relationship, but in this cycle, shes still alive, and in 'a stranger' and were in the gaslighting/ victim blaming stage of a temporary breakup, blaming her for their failing at sobriety.

In 'the outsider' hes now responding to his partner's suicidalness, coldly pushing her away, litterally telling her shes being a drama queen and if shes going to do it, do it elsewhere.

In 'The nurse who loved me' shes now in a mental hospital. She's drugged up, laying on the carpet (post suicide attempt?) And hes flirting with the nurse trying to take her home and hoping hw might score some drugs off her.

'Pet' has her now out of the hospital, release back into his care, and now completely broken and dependent on him, isolated from everyone else.

I think gravity can be read a couple ways- us he finally trying to break the cycle, and his own addiction?

Is tail in hand a reference to him 'chasing the dragon' and finally having caught it- ODing himself (surrendering to gravity and the unknown) and calling out to someone to save him?

What's notable is the lack of 'You' in this song. Every other song has referred to the girl in the second person, as 'you', and shes seemingly absent.

[–] gid@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 hours ago

That's a very interesting point. I didn't interpret the album in this way, but even doing so I'm still put off. That's purely a personal thing, and I'm in not suggesting this is a bad album because the sentiment in it (whether personally felt by the lyricist or just an invention from the perspective of a flawed character) is something I don't share.

My reaction to lyrics has become uncomfortable to the point where I no longer enjoy the album, and so I guess I'm grieving the loss of my love for this album.

[–] gid@piefed.blahaj.zone 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

A lot of the lyrics on Thirteenth Step feel like they come from a place of judgement and cynicism at an addict's recovery. I get it's a concept album, and this is Maynard's take on the issue as he experiences it. But the more I listen to it the more I realise I don't relate to it at all. So I feel like I'm saying goodbye to an album that I used to enjoy musically.

[–] Jumbie@lemmy.zip 5 points 20 hours ago

It’s not uncommon to outgrow artists and things we like. Good for you for recognizing why.