This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agscWsru7Gk&ab_channel=CaitlinV
She actually goes onto explain how not having sex for a long time can contribute to problems on mental health, emotional health, etc.
The second half of her video has the solutions to these problems and the last point is one I want to expand on. The first 2 solutions was to 1. Create feel good chemicals by exercising, eating healthy, leaning on trusted friends, etc and the 2. one is fuck yourself (not regular masturbation where you race to ejaculation, but slowly taking your time with it.). The third suggestion is where I take issue with and it's getting a sex worker.
Note I have nothing against sex work. I believe sex work is work and there's nothing wrong with getting it. My issue with this point is the way I believe society is set up to profit off of lonely and sexually frustrated men.
Paying for sex work is very expensive, like you have to be making the kind of money where the cost to even get these services are casual at best. Even if there are cheap option, I don't believe many men out there feel they should have to pay for experiences just to feel wanted.
Think about it this way. When you go outside to try to make friends, or to try and talk to a woman you find attractive, you notice how cold and distant people treat you in social places. In the first initial meeting, you're treated as a potential predator that has to prove himself to be a good person first, and even after you passed the test, you need to be mindful of not making her feel uncomfortable, and make having sex with them feel completely natural. It's also on you to make the sure interactions you lead the interactions in a way to keep her around, and basically really sell yourself. Couple that with the expectation society has for the man to be the pursuer, all of these things make a very daunting experience for men.
Men don't have a lot of options when it comes to dating and when they to have the opportunity, are expected to make sure it goes well. This setup creates a very convincing need for sex work, with a high demand of it coming from men because their basic needs aren't being met consistently.
I believe there needs to be a better solution rather than spending money on experiencing intimacy via sexual services. The most obvious way would be to stop demonizing men at a very ridiculous level, especially at the first meet, but most people on the left space don't like that idea cuz 'safety' and 'patriarchy' so obviously getting to a point where we don't do that is gonna take a long time, we need better short term solutions that doesn't cost money for that. Sexual services are fine when you get them here and there, not when it becomes a potentially long-term thing (I've known men who consistently get sex through prostitutes)
One of the solutions offered by Aba and Preach would be a solution I would offer in helping with this situation as well, mostly short-term.
https://youtu.be/P22ZpncT8B4?t=738
Now they're saying not to approach women and I don't think most women put men that approach them on blast that regular, but that's perfectly valid given the society we're living in. Me personally, I've done a lot of approaching and have been very experienced in it and I haven't been blasted on media, but this is because I gauge most situations I have going in. The process of learning it today is fucking hard so one slip up in an unlucky situation can turn your life upside down if you get blasted on social media.
Other solutions?
Read books and websites on people skills so you can work on talking to people. Don't get me wrong, we've all had natural experiences with talking to people, so I'm not implying you're all very socially inept that can't hold a conversation. I think a lot of the guys here actually have no problem with conversation, especially when talking to women. But maybe you don't have the kind of friends you do like having around, or maybe you don't have any afab friends or maybe you do, but again not the ideal person you want in your life. I'm mostly recommending this because if you want to have control over your own life and build better relationships, people skills are crucial. So the next time you're in a situation where you want to make friends with certain people or talk to a woman you find attractive, you know have the experience backed up to do it
Read books on dating material so you can make up for a lack of experience. However, this bit is very tricky as there's a lot of toxic dating advice out there. I got proper sources of healthy dating advice if you want my suggestion message me.
Next step is practicality. For social skills, go to a hobby-based group or club and put what you learned to the test. Preferably a new one, as if you're in an old group, they probably have a set image of you and depending on that, maybe harder to break out of. Finding a new social setting will give you a fresh start if this is the case. For practicing dating skills, I would highly recommend speed dating. Now don't expect to actually get dates from speed dating. In fact, as a man if you wanna find a date via speed dating, you're gonna be spending money for a long time. Instead, use them to practice your skills. Each date you have last up to 5 minutes so you have a very short timeframe to work with, but this is perfect as you get to work on initiating conversations and internalizing body language signals being sent out, and you'll be 'dating' multiple people in one setting so you have a lot of volume to work with for one night. This is to help improve your skills quickly, arming you with enough knowledge and experience to navigate life with a prepared lens.
Now the article is written from the perspective of someone that hasn't gone to any sexual services and don't really plan to. Has anyone gone to get sexual services? What was it like going there? Do you agree it to be a solution for guys problem with a lack of sex?
The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.
Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.
For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.
Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/
If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.
Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.
Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.
“Sure safety is important, but what about my feelings?” “Make sure to give your friends your murderers description” “A man, who can be the same size and mass as you, but will statistically will be stronger than you, tries to take you somewhere private? Simply tell them no” “Worried you’ll be raped? Simply record it.” I acknowledge these are not literally the words that you said, but I want you to know, as a fellow man, reading what you said gave me this impression. You’re coming at this issue way too combatively. I get that we’re all horny and that sex is good and fun and we like to have it, and you’re not gonna calm down when I tell you to calm down but you need to chill about it a little bit. Or don’t you’re a person who can make your own decisions.
Added after: Also stalking exists and police usually don’t do anything until it’s too late
What would be your suggestion for being less combative? I have a tendency to over-explain my position so the context doesn't get misconstrued but perhaps there's a better way of having a discussion.
It's not just about the sex though, it's about being treated as less than human due to an over-heightened fear of men. I referenced her video to mostly address the last point and how what I've said would lead to this. I don't care if a woman is not down to have sex with me that's her choice.
Stalking does exist. I didn't include as it's not part of the normal social context I was painting earlier. Stalking happens when someone who you don't know or have little familiarity with is following you, so there's no way to include it nor excuse it. And then there's stalking from someone who you've known before but now is a stranger to you which is a much more difficult situation to deal with.
I specified those situations because A) these are the types of situations where potential predators are likely to take advantage and B) I've also acknowledge many of these are just suggestions from me as a man. These are also suggestions mentioned by women I have spoken with. Are they perfect? No. Do we need better solutions? Absolutely, we do. I also understand that these are very difficult situations to deal with, which is why even the suggestions I'm giving aren't always bullet-proof when they do happen (and same goes for men who experience false allegations or abuse as well, you can record it and back it up, doesn't mean it's not a difficult situation to be in), but it doesn't justify the fear of almost every guy out there which I have seen time and time again. I could've done a better job of not making dealing with those situations sound easy peasy while making my point.
So I went back and reread all the stuff that you wrote, and I guess maybe combative isn’t the right word, maybe a little callous? It just feels like you’re being very dismissive of very real potential trauma. I’ve seen how it just kind of destroys any hope for any normal future relationship in a person. So I personally don’t think it’s wild for women to want to protect themselves even if that means it is harder to date.
I don’t know if this whole situation is something someone can individually solve, more of a societal push for things like reducing rape kit backlogs, improving statistics for women killed by an intimate partners and pregnant women killed by partners, and as you say the smaller percentage of rapists and murderers, serial or otherwise. I think if we could take a lot of the fear out of the interactions things would go better, but there’s not a lot of trust that if something goes bad, police will help in really any way, you’re kind of on your own you know? So it’s safer to be cautious, especially on the first meet.
I think a lot of your original post has some decent dating advice, if a little patronizing, I would point a teenager at it as decent advice, and would definitely emphasize shared hobbies. Hobbies are great for meeting new friends.
It occurs to me that a lot of my argument is America centric. And assuming you are also America centric and that might not be the case so I think it’s fair to call his whole thing a side discussion.
As to the your original question, I have zero problem with sex work even though it’s not currently legal where I am. I believe it is better to legalize and regulate sex work. And I don’t think it’s wrong for people to employ some sexual services, even regularly. There are people who can’t or won’t date or marry and they should still have the opportunity to have sex. I’m pretty sure it’s in Denmark they actually give handicap people a stipend for it because just because you’re in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you don’t want to have sex.
Your argument would make more sense if men weren’t dealing with all that defensive bullshit and being shit on for being single and not in some way giving their resources to a woman
Oh and if it wasn’t illegal for them to pay for sex
Oh and if they didn’t hear “where are all the good men” on every dating site
Oh and if men weren’t statistically provably in more danger at all times women complain to be (you didn’t provide sources either, when you gave them a pass for treating all men like shit out of their own delusional fears)
So, if it weren’t for a little thing called reality, you’d have an excellent point!
It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.
Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).
A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.
What about my advice bit is patronizing?
I don’t mean it’s morally correct, but practically, I don’t think it’s bad advice to tell people to be worried about false accusations, and that they should probably only sleep with people that they trust. I am a big “only date friends” person, but I acknowledge that that’s a minority view, and that strangers date all the time and it works out.
I’m saying those statistics already exist and they’re pretty grim. At least in the US those statistics are put out by the DOJ, I just wasn’t able to find one recently enough that I’d want to cite it(I don’t think it doesn’t exist, I think it’s user error lol)
I agree with everything you said about not conforming to gender roles. I think we really should start approaching interactions, thinking “this is a human, this is a person” and moving away from the binaries. Ya know, egalitarianism.
As for the police (at least in America I honestly think that if we fired all police unions and completely rehired new people, it would help a lot of things but that’s probably a different discussion), they probably need to employ more psychologist and specialists, because police already don’t do a great job with existing sexual assault cases so having someone who is able to suss out whether someone’s lying, without being an insensitive jerk to a victim would be good. The way I see it there is a bit of a cycle where police do a bad job or worse, are dismissive. Therefore, the perpetrator isn’t caught and punished. Therefore, there are more bad apples out there, repeat offenders, etc., and statistics go up and trust goes down.
So I as for my charge of mild condescension; the impression I got was “you need advice, so here’s advice” and not “do you need advice? If so, here’s advice”. You acknowledge later in the OP that not everyone reading it will need the advice, and I just think with some changes you wouldn’t’ve had to make that clarification, and it would’ve come off less strong. Maybe if the advice stuff was its own thread instead of mixed in here, I would feel different I think? Also, putting feminism in scare quotes isn’t great because the people who usually do that are the people who are mostly in it for hating women so people sort of will just lump you together with them because the human brain is lazy and it likes simple categories so it doesn’t have to think hard.
Overall, you seem like a solid dude who genuinely wants to have a discussion on this. I think I’m used to much more toxic spaces on this and so I probably pushed back too hard, so you shouldn’t let me get you down
The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.
I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.
Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.