this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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WomensStuff
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Women only trans inclusive This is an inclusive community for all things women. Whether you're here for make up tips, feminism or just friendly chit chat, we've got you covered.
Rules…
- Women only… trans women are women, and transphobic or gender critical talk isn’t allowed. Any woman-identified person under the trans umbrella (e.g. non-binary, bigender, agender) is welcome.
- Don’t be a dick. No personal attacks, no aggression, play nice.
- Don’t hate on groups, hatefilled talk about groups is not allowed. Ever.
- No governmental politics, so no talk of Trump actions etc. We recommend Feminism@beehaw.org for that, but here is an escape from it.
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Trans men are men and I believe the trans-affirming position is to exclude them, but if you've read Leslie Feinberg's Stone Butch Blues you already know it can be quite complicated - so we let trans men decide whether they belong in a womens-only community.
Some trans men have a butch lesbian identity before they transition that they continue to have a connection to, and it can be hard for some trans men to lose their connection to a community of women. Some trans men are not passing and continue to move through the world perceived as a woman despite having a gender identity that makes them a man.
Either way, I have understood the trans rule as allowing any trans individuals decide whether they feel they belong here or not. My understanding might be wrong, or we might need to revise the rule or my understanding of it.
Oh, I'm all for including them. I was just surprised, no worries!
And yes, if you're a trans man who doesn't (yet?) pass, it would be cruel to be forced out of connections without commensurate connections being formed on the other side of the transition.
I mean, I don't know - I still debate this with myself tbh, it makes me feel a bit ill to include trans men in womens spaces because it's just so transphobic on the face of it, it reminds me of womens spaces like the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival which famously excluded trans women from attending or performing, but allowed fully transitioned trans men not only to attend but to perform ...
There is some implicit notion that when a woman becomes more masculine it is good, and trans men somehow embody the ultimate apotheosis of a woman (i.e. a woman who achieves manhood), it all just reeks of misogyny and transphobia to me. This thinking seems to hate femininity and it negates the male gender identity of trans men.
But being trans is so difficult even for the trans individual to come to terms with or understand that it's not uncommon for trans folks to have complicated relationships to gender. A lot of us fall are not strictly binary, and we fall somewhere between men or women.
Some of us are binary enough but have been so pressured by society to fit in one box even after we realize we don't fix that box we don't feel we can move to the other box.
So I guess the "even trans men" is a way to just leave wiggle room for people to decide for themselves, and to prioritize self-identity, even though that is admittedly messy. And yes, it is to avoid someone feeling wronged by being excluded from a space where they feel they belong.
That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying.
I guess the subreddit allowing comments from trans men but not cis men makes me feel uncomfortable because I'd like to feel like I'm accepted in c/womensstuff because I'm a woman, not because I'm trans. If othera trans people are accepted into a women's community because they're trans and not a woman, and it makes me wonder why I'm specifically allowed here. If that makes sense.
But the polices here are far better than, in your example, womens' communities who accept anyone with two x chromosomes.
And I'm not saying anyone should be excluded on my account. I know what exclusion feels like and it hurts. You're right, it is very individual, and I personally don't want to be anywhere near a men-only space. But there's so much I can never understand about the trans man experience being a trans woman. Keep on doing what you're doing. This is a well moderated community :)
It should be clarified: this is a womens-only community that allows trans & intersex folks (including non-women and trans men) to decide for themselves whether they feel they belong in a womens-only community. We technically allow cis men to disclose whether they're women or not, too - when we don't know, we just ask! It's not that different for a trans man, we just might have extra language of "you decide whether you feel you belong here".
But that's not why you belong here, you belong because you're a woman, silly 😝
I appreciate the clarification. Thank you 🙂