this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we're trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.

Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.

Politics on the internet


Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I'm attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else's emotions or my connection to them.

In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I'm interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.

I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I'm asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.

Forking


It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today's day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it's impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.

We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we've done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it's just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.

I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We're currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we 'could do' when we're struggling to keep up with what we're already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.

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[–] EthicalAI@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Can someone please link a list of offending material? Are both devs at fault or just one?

[–] Angius@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They, reportedly, run the lemmygrad instance

[–] EthicalAI@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I’m fine with them being communists. I’m also fine with them not moderating things. I’m not fine with them actively denying genocides or denying repressive facts about historical or present socialist regimes.

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

https://lemmygrad.ml/post/668436 says they're pro-Stalin, pro-North-Korea and pro-CCP, but dresses that up as just pro-Marxism.

Generally, it's a good rule of thumb to see if people list things like worker ownership over the means of production and the abolition of the owning class, or a bunch of authoritarian regimes to judge if they're keener on the communism or the authoritarianism.

[–] MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How does one become pro North Korea etc? Lol. That'd take gymnast abilities I'm not quite capable of yet.

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[–] EthicalAI@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That gives me a 404: deleted error

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's still up for me, but I have to open it with a browser rather than Jerboa. I'll see if I can figure out posting screenshots from this app.

[–] EthicalAI@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Is that poster one of the devs?

Very sus that they’d support those regimes, not all MLs do.

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[–] ffmike@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hopefully not repeating things others have said...

  • Thanks for taking the time to write long thoughtful posts explaining the admin thinking, rather than just "we have decided X, live with it" posts.
  • It seems entirely appropriate to me for the admins to set the tone of this instance, through explicit rules, through deciding who to add as a user and who to make a mod, and through deciding which other instances to federate with. Anybody who disagrees can always start their own instance. That you're opening a coffee shop doesn't mean anyone can come in without shirt and shoes (bad analogy like all analogies).
  • It's entirely possible that I (older white male with plenty of income raised in a homegeneous white suburb) have some opinions that would be appropriate on one of those defederated instances but not here. I can always make an account over there if I feel the need to post those opinions. Likewise, if someone on a defederated instance wants to post here and can behave themselves according to the house rules, they can create an account here. This doesn't seem like a huge burden to impose on anyone.
  • During a long career as a software developers, just about every successful fork I can recall came about because a majority of a project's developers (not its users!) decided they had to leave a dysfunctional project. Until/unless Lemmy gets to that point it seems pretty silly to me to talk about forking the codebase.
[–] misguidedfunk@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is what I have failed to understand about people seemingly worried about this instance wanting to be a safe space. If they do not like it, they can just jump to another instance.

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[–] dax@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

A few years ago it turned out a very promising python documentation library was using another library for a core aspect of the docstring comment parsing subsystem. I don't remember the names of either of these two, but as it turns out, the person who wrote the docstring comment parsing subsystem was someone who liked using the Nazi-Facing-Swastika as his repeating background image on his site and as textual glyphs to denote things like list items. He claimed it was everyone being too stupid to know he was using it in an eastern context, but he had an email like firstname_lastname88@gmail or whatever.

The point I made then is that even if FirstName LastName was running into a culture-shock situation, and even if they just happened to like the number 88 - or maybe they were born in 88 - there was simply no way I wanted to tie myself or my employer to that person. Nobody is going to extend any grace.

I guess I don't even think that is necessarily a bad thing. Why should people stanning genocidal authoritarian regimes be extended grace? Is it only okay if they can give us something, like a nazi scientist building space rockets? Is it simply because they gave you something you can't get anywhere else without paying more than you'd want to? I actually don't have an answer for this. I felt fine telling PossibleNazi88 No, and AccidentallyLinkedCompositionalLibraryAuthor Sorry, I'll pass, and in large part that is because Sphinx does exist and I can use it, even if I'd prefer not to. But what if this library were the only one? Would I just hold my nose and use it anyway?

Same with Lemmy - can I get it in a different package? A similar fediverse community package, without the gross genocide cooties all over it? This is a practical question; maybe this is reason enough to want to host a kbin instance over lemmy, eventually.

But philosophically: What if the next fediverse community package is from a Patriotic American, who has no problem with all the first peoples genocides and chattel slavery history because they believe in America so much that it's an intrinsic part of their identity?

It sucks because I want to make everything better, and I believe that to be true of Beehaw administration for sure as well, but navigating this shit is hard and even if you're principled you're probably only principled insofar as you're aware.

Conversely, doing the thing you know to be wrong just because the alternative is hard and maybe impossible isn't good either. But maybe you can use the genocide-fan's product to do more good than harm? But now you're back to nazi scientists making moon rockets, and nobody is happy.


I guess I'm just rambling while I admire the problem.

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[–] Ghast@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I just made a lemmy.world account after hearing about the mods on lemmy.ml, but when I posted a picture of winnie the pooh, the comment was deleted, and I was marked as a bot. And it sounds like beehaw's not open for new registrations.

Oh well, guess I'll be a tankie now. :/

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[–] CooperRedArmyDog@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Question, you mention that the only instances you block allow fascism, however you have blocked both Lemmygrad and preemptively Hexbear, both of them are Communist in nature, and I feel that this is crazy to need to point out, but communism is the polar opposite to Fascism, and they are ideological opposed in every way, You will never find a more ardent anti-facist than a communist, so I feel like this is a bad faith attack on these instances. I also would like to point out that First Hexbear has not federated, nor made any plans to federate with Beehaw, over concerns with Beehaw moderation, and Lemmygrad has Rule 2. No Bigotry Rule 3. be Respectful and Rule 5. No Right Deviationists (No fascists), and they are very well enforced, and Rule 3 in particular is better enforced there than over here on Beehaw.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Anti-fascists? These people revere the likes of Mao and Stalin. In what meaningful way were Mao and Stalin different from fascists?

[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

I also would like to point out that First Hexbear has not federated, nor made any plans to federate with Beehaw, over concerns with Beehaw moderation

I'm kinda interested to read that because I've personally read the opposite.

[–] SharkEatingBreakfast@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hopefully this is not inappropriate, but regarding the "this platform was made by tankies"–argument:

[–] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yeah lemmygrad will fade in popularity and lemmy.ml has already gotten so big it's shifted politically. It also seems like the creators are fine with other ideas on their instance too. Maybe it's just cause they know lemmy wouldnt get adopted otherwise but the only strict moderating against speech I see is against the obvious trolls and alt right fascists so far.

Then you have beehaw and the other instances outright blocking lemmygrad and things seem just peachy

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

This is from an outsider (non US) perspective, so I am sorry in advance if this is offensive to ask but Google doesn't really help me here.

I looked up what a "tankie" is and that seems to be an insult to people who live in a communist state. Is communism considered a hate speech or otherwise hateful for people in the USA?

[–] Fearofthefamiliar@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Tankie usually means someone who supports the authoritarianism of communist authoritarian nations. Occasionally it's also used to describe all communists

Communism is not considered hate speech, but it is commonly hated

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Interestingly, I think this is similar to how "patriotism" is seen in Germany. Patriotism is commonly hated although probably not all patriots are die-hard Nazis. The dislike or even hate towards communism is very foreign to me but it is good to know, thanks for explaining.

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[–] Laconic@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I didn't realize lemmygrad was tolerating hate speech over there. That's fucked up.

[–] ratboy@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (9 children)

I think it has more to do with them being Marxist Leninists which is really problematic to a lot of people. You should go check it out and see for yourself what the posts look like.

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[–] ratboy@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (9 children)

My whole experience of moving to lemmy has felt like when people from another state move to a new one and complain about how awful it is and force it to change into where they left. If people are so absplutely offended by the politics of its originators, go create your own social media and stop harassing the poor mods, especially if the mods of this particular instance are trying to make your experience more palatable.

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[–] nicholas@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

Honest question: can you define ‘hate speech’? Because in theory I agree it should not be allowed however in practice it generally means ‘political ideas that I disagree with’ are banned under the guise of hate speech rules. There needs to be specific standards clarifying what the rule actually is.

Hypothetical example: am I allowed to take a socially conservative stance on gender-affirming healthcare or would that be considered ‘hate speech’?

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

I want to provide a bit more of a nuanced answer here, because I suspect there are users for which a wee bit more clarity would be helpful. A quick google on hate speech reveals that the UN has a pretty simple page and info-graphic capturing what hate speech entails (in b4 lemmygrad calls me a UN shill). As alyaza mentioned, we're not interested in rules lawyering about this, if enough people are concerned about speech that's present, we encourage the entire community to step in - this means members can remind you keep it nice, moderators might, or admins. We aren't looking to ban people permanently over a single comment that isn't extremely obvious and explicit hate speech such as "we should kill all ". But we also aren't tolerant to implicit hate speech, and we will step in if you make an argument such as "we should use phrenology".

As a general rule (again, not interested in rules lawyering here), if you are trying to advocate for a stance and members of the affected community are pushing back strongly against that stance, it's probably not something we're going to let you say around here because we are explicitly a safe space. Your stance on gender-affirming healthcare, for example, could make people who pursue this healthcare who exist in our space very upset and is something that you shouldn't be attempting to proselytize here. We're asking you to be considerate of the thoughts and feelings and well-being of our members. There's a lot of other reasons why you should probably change your stance on this, including that even if you disagree this group of individuals has an extremely high suicide rate and thus preventing access to medical care is indirectly arguing for violence, but that's outside the scope of this comment and not an educational burden I'm particularly interested in giving to a stranger on the internet who's asking me questions which raise an eyebrow. I'm trying to treat you with good faith, but even I have limits.

One final note, we are explicitly intolerant of intolerance. Thus if someone using hate speech enters in here, we are not moderating people being hateful in response. They brought that on themselves by being hateful.

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[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Hypothetical example: am I allowed to take a socially conservative stance on gender-affirming healthcare or would that be considered ‘hate speech’?

we're not going to suddenly deviate from doing our One Rule thing and break out a legal contract and definition for what hate speech is and isn't--and frankly, even asking this is already kind of a self-report.[^1] this reply also heavily implies you don't really get why we've structured things the way they are here. as for the other question: if you think that gender-affirming care is wrong or immoral or whatever or that trans people are freaks (because that is basically always the unstated implication of such a belief) then no, this really isn't the instance for you.

[^1]: because let's be very clear: the vast majority of people do not have to ask this question.

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[–] pimeys@lemmy.nauk.io 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I would love to have this as a generalized text to be shared between instances. I'd use the general mood of this post as basis for the rules for all my instances. Maybe on GitHub, which then can be edited through pull requests and discussed.

I originally joined Beehaw, but decided to run my own instance because why not. I still prefer subscribing the communities in Beehaw just due to this way of thinking. I hope the moderation works for you and doesn't get too bad.

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[–] bartera@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't pretend to change anything of how this place works, specially considering it's federated and, as you say, presumably different spaces can be forked and "set up their own rules".

I remain, however quite keen to see if the "no hate speech" is a consistent thing or simply a "hate is ok against the right targets" and "being on the other side of X issue is hate speech" (e.g.: any controversial topic such as being against a particular war, being in favor of/against political party X, expressing views opposed to government policies, not sharing a specific view by the demographic majority of the site (Usually US/UK/AUS)).

Ideally, I can set up something where I can get exposure to many views and go here and there without having to feel I'm in X circlejerk and the narrative is packet Y, that comes with all these predetermined views in this overton window.

In a way, the more I have access to, the better. Because I can move from side to side learning about the others. Obviously, this view is not shared by many and thet would gladly censor 75% of the space to preserve the right way, claiming it's "moderation". I don't disagree on moderation but I think that we're too interfered at this point that we don't even see how little room we have for discussion (which then creates very narrow discussions in different niches).

In any case, sorry for the stream of consciousness. Excited to see how all this works and hopefully I'm able to participate and gain insights from a wide array of perspectives in a wide descentralized network.

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

As is stated elsewhere, we are explicitly intolerant of the intolerant. Hate speech in response to hate speech is perfectly acceptable - calling Nazis out is cool and correct.

To be absolutely clear as has also been stated in depth elsewhere (please read the other philosophy posts in the sidebar) we are not interested in creating echo chambers on issues which do not involve hate speech or violate the explicitly safe space we have here. You're welcome to discuss politics with other people, so long as neither of you are advocating hate speech. We recognize that often hate speech comes from a place of ignorance and needing education because we internalize many values from society which are colonialist, but if we treat each other with good faith we can learn a lot from diverse opinions.

[–] bartera@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Yeah. Don't want you to feel the need to justify yourself. I appreciate the efforts regardless of whether we end up agreeing on moderation policies (and I think not agreeing on everything and coexisting is awesome). Was just adding my 2 cents, which I feel will be different from many.

I obviously have my concerns on the "call out a nazi" because holding the wrong (TM) opinion will get you called a nazi but that's just par for the course. I don't particularly need a safe space and it would be bad (imho) if ALL spaces were so but, again, presumably the ability of a descentralized network is that, that everyone will always be able to launch their instance with their rules to mitigate that concern.

I'm perfectly ok to play by the rules here and see how it goes.

[–] nicholas@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

But you have not addressed my main concern regarding the definition of words. Here’s a perfect example from your comment:

Hate speech in response to hate speech is perfectly acceptable - calling Nazis out is cool and correct.

I already see based on the comments here that anyone who votes for a Republican is going to being considered a Nazi and therefore used as justification for the rules to be applied unevenly against certain political affiliations.

Do you at least see and acknowledge my concern? Because this is going to turn into another dead and boring echochamber extremely quickly if these questions are not addressed head-on upfront.

You claim that this is a non-partisan space. Is it or is it not? Be upfront about what the rules are if you want real honest and well-intentioned engagement from a diverse group of opinions.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I already see based on the comments here that anyone who votes for a Republican is going to being considered a Nazi[...]

other people have covered the rest here, so i'll just point out that if you're interested in soapboxing about "well-intentioned engagement from a diverse group of opinions", you should probably take a second to consider why you're seemingly unwilling to take such engagement from the other direction--or to even engage with why people might believe what you're describing. i feel comfortable saying this because you were also unwilling to hear out the other side in a previous discussion on here, even when provided with evidence and points from multiple users that directly contradicted your assertions.

[–] nicholas@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I’m in a forum where I am dominated by opposing viewpoints. To say that I’m unwilling to engage is laughable.

And the linked example is a back-and-forth with disagreement. Everything was completely civil. Are you saying that disagreeing with the established hivemind-narrative is “refusing to engage”? Disagreement and debate should be encouraged as long as it’s civil. I really don’t understand the point that you’re trying to make here. And I absolutely loathe the Reddit-like behavior of digging through someone’s post history with the ill-intent to smear them.

[–] SugarApplePie@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Everything was completely civil.

Later in that thread you say

Ah so you’re just a left-wing partisan conspiracy theorist. ... Or you’re a troll. Which is probably the case.

Which doesn't really read as "completely civil".

To say that I’m unwilling to engage is laughable.

The discussion that was linked quite literally shows your unwillingness to engage. I don't get lying about something that everyone can check, I can only assume this is your genuine POV. That coupled with your comment earlier in this thread about how "here anyone who votes for a Republican is going to being considered a Nazi" gives the image of someone who does not actually care about "well-intentioned engagement from a diverse group of opinions". It just reads as a persecution complex. You can't even give well-intentioned engagement for your opinions!

digging through someone’s post history with the ill-intent to smear them.

It's a conversation you had with that person like 3 days ago that helps highlight the bad faith engagement here. It's not like they pulled out some unrelated tweet you made 8 years ago, lol.

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