Israel and Palestine Politics Discussion

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The sole purpose of this community is to discuss Israeli and Palestinian issues. It is not the place for hurling insults, rehashing grudges, or making up history. Any conversation that veers into the "if only your people had" realm will be deleted or locked right away. I started this community in the potentially fruitless hope that we may have a civil conversation about this issue.

Rules:

  1. References to historical events must include a reputable source. The definition of reputable is up to the mods. Keep that in mind.
  2. Articles from reputable sources only.
  3. No name-calling. That's what DMs are for. /s
  4. Keep it in English. If I don't understand the word, it gets removed. Obvious exceptions would be the use of proper names and references. For example, "wadi" when used to refer to a place is acceptable.
  5. Discussions that are heading into the probability of becoming a flame war will be locked.
  6. Repeat offenders will be forced to find another community.
  7. Anti-Zionism is ok. Anti-Semitism is not.
  8. Whataboutism is for toddlers. Try to grow up.
  9. Posting articles about current events is encouraged. Posting the same story from 20 different sources is not.
  10. Posting an article purely for the purpose of saying "Look what monsters they are" is discouraged unless it can generate an honest discussion. This is probably the most difficult rule to follow.
  11. No calling anyone a terrorist.
  12. No YouTube links. Some of us can read.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
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I’ve yearned for a venue where we could speak openly about what’s happening in one of the world’s most contentious regions. My background is German, so you can probably anticipate where the topic ends up when I bring up Israeli politics. That has gotten old for me, and I won’t put up with it in any of the conversations going on here. My people committed terrible crimes, and ever since then, we have been working to make amends. I’ve already seen a description of the Holocaust on Wikipedia that, depending on how you define it, could relate to the deaths of anywhere between 2 million and 30 million people. Never in my life will I debate about math. It doesn’t matter to me if it was 100 or 100 million. It was wrong to murder people, and it shouldn’t happen again anywhere. Story over.

This community must continue to be a place for open discussions; however, I would prefer not to intervene harshly in any conversations that get improper. Unlike the Palestine community on Lemmygrad, this community is different. I won’t favor one side over the others. I like having spirited talks, which is why I started this community. Such talks ought to be educational rather than propagandistic or meant to belittle. I hope to learn more about the situation and hope others do as well.

I expect heated discussions. After all, it wouldn’t be a proper Irish wedding without a small brawl or two. As long as the participants can agree afterward that the choice of whiskey was good, and a good time was had by all.

When posting an item, please utilize a paragraph or two from the article rather than simply the headline to persuade readers to read the entire thing.

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PCPSR regularly polls Palestinians about their opinions related to the conflict and their living conditions.

Favorability of the October 7 attack, the belief that Hamas will win the war, and support for Hamas continue to decline, but the overwhelming majority is opposed to Hamas disarmament and does not believe that release of the hostages will bring an end to the war. Nonetheless, about half of Gazans support the anti-Hamas demonstrations and almost half want to leave the Gaza Strip if they could. Support for the two-state solution remains unchanged but support for armed struggle drops

  1. Support for Hamas’ decision to launch the October the 7th offensive continues to decline

  2. Humanitarian conditions in the Gaza Strip: 53% of Gazans say they have enough food for a day or two

  3. War crimes and atrocities: When asked if Hamas had committed the atrocities (…) against Israeli civilians, such as killing women and children in their homes. The overwhelming majority (87%) said it did not commit such atrocities

There are several more questions including future government of Gaza, hostages release, two state solution, and more.

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We can expect aid to enter Gaza again soon, which is good news. The bad news is the IDF plans to expand their offensive.

Israel is planning to radically alter the way humanitarian aid is distributed in the Gaza Strip when it begins allowing assistance into the enclave in the coming weeks after what will have been a nearly two-and-a-half-month freeze, an Israeli and Arab official familiar with the matter told The Times of Israel this week.

The plan is to transition away from wholesale distribution and warehousing of aid and to instead have international organizations and private security contractors hand out boxes of food to individual Gazan families, according to the officials.

Each family will have a designated representative tasked with reaching an Israel Defense Forces security zone in southern Gaza, where aid will be distributed after going through several rounds of inspection. Each box will have enough food to last several days until family representatives will be allowed to return to the security zone to receive another parcel, the officials said, adding that Israel believes this method will make it harder for Hamas to divert aid to its fighters. (…)

The IDF in recent days has recommended that the Israeli government approve the resumption of humanitarian aid deliveries to the Gaza Strip, regardless of a hostage deal with the Hamas terror group, in a bid to avoid starvation among the Palestinian civilian population, according to military officials who briefed reporters earlier this week.

The IDF has made it clear to the political echelon that resuming the entry of aid will soon be necessary to avoid violations of international law and future legal problems for commanders taking part in the military operation. (…)

The military official acknowledged that “despite the military pressure being exerted, the Hamas terror organization remains unwilling [to agree to a deal].”

Therefore, the military official said the IDF was preparing to call up a large number of reserve troops in the coming period to “significantly” expand the offensive in Gaza by operating in new areas of the Strip.

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Sides in an armed conflict have an interest to exaggerate or downplay losses. This report tries to poke holes in the reports of casualties from Gaza by examining the released data. Collecting casualty data under the conditions in Gaza is of course difficult and bound to not be perfect.


Key Findings

The Ministry of Health (MoH) under the Hamas government in Gaza has produced casualty data throughout the 2023–2025 Hamas–Israel war in Gaza. Our analysis of this data, which drills into records produced by Gaza hospitals, shows the following:

  1. LOCAL DATA PROVIDES A STRONG SIGNAL THAT ISRAELI MILITARY TRIED TO LIMIT GAZAN CIVILIAN HARM: Empirical evidence across cross-sections of the data provided by the MoH itself showed that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) took measures that tried to avoid harming women and children. To illustrate: in Khan Yunis across January-May 2024, MoH data showed that women and children combined (who comprise 75% of the Gazan population) comprised 34% of all deaths; that is, less than half of the 70% Hamas claimed.

  2. CUMULATIVE DATA FOR ENTIRE WAR SHOWED LESS CIVILIAN HARM THAN HAMAS ALLEGED: The most recent (March 2025) cumulative list of 50,021 identified casualties showed that the proportion of women and children’s mortalities (W&C) over the whole war was 51% (25,401 / 50,021). (Across 2024, women and children comprised 40% to 43% of the injured.) Approximately 45% of all Gazan deaths were legal fighting-age males (18 ≤ M ≤ 59) but a significant additional component as child casualties were male underage combatants. These statistics signal that, over the whole war across all Gaza, the IDF sought to avoid civilians and that harm to civilians was far less than Hamas alleged publicly.

  3. RECENT PREPONDERANCE OF MALE CASUALTIES: MoH March 2025 data showed that, among 11,224 new casualties in the seven months since 7 October 2024, there were 8,565 males (76.3%) and 2,659 females (23.7%). Among these new casualties, 58% were legal combat-age males and an additional unknown but significant proportion were underage combatant males. The reduced proportion of casualties that were women and children (down to 38%) over the most recent 7 months of data-reportage indicates improvement over time of Israeli efforts to avoid Gazan civilian harm. The new data raises questions about whether a large number of males previously went unreported, or whether Hamas had simply over-represented women and children casualties in the past.

  4. DOWNWARD TREND IN OVERALL CASUALTIES: The highest rates of combatant and civilian casualties occurred in October 2023 to early January 2024, according to time- stamped MoH casualty data made available in 2025. The rate of overall casualties declined through 2024 down to an intensity of 10 to 20% of the initial rate in October 2023.

  5. CONTRADICTORY HAMAS WAR CASUALTY NARRATIVES: Smoothly packaged and widely propagated Hamas Government Media Office (GMO) information press releases that claimed 70% women and children casualties were in contradiction with the more reliable Ministry of Health raw datasets. GMO data showed that children’s deaths were more numerous than adult women or men, while MoH data showed that men were most numerous. Nevertheless, MoH ‘dashboard’ infographics and public statements were demonstrably false when compared to its own datasets; for example, its repeated publishing of a 70% women and children casualty rate that was inconsistent with its detailed hospital- sourced datasets. These various contradictions enabled Hamas to argue various different narratives when convenient.

  6. OBSCURED CASUALTY DATA TRENDS: The Ministry data did not describe the war chronologically nor provide a reliable picture of trends across time because date-stamped information was never published, despite being held. The dates of deaths of Gazans were not published with their identity details. The data contained so many inconsistencies, Hamas Casualty Reports are a Tangle of Technical Problems 6 major changes and large-scale corrections shuffled across different time periods that, in general, it was almost unusable for studying casualty trends. The changes also made it difficult to test even very simple hypotheses with the data.

  7. COMPROMISED INTEGRITY OF DATASETS DUE TO UNVERIFIED DATA: Standard verification of identities of casualties was done in hospitals and morgues by verification of bodies and documents but there were 15,070 unidentified casualties reported by 31 March

  8. Almost 14,000 were later identified via online electronic forms by 7 October 2024. Verification processes for identification of many of these casualties were dubious. Due to their many anomalies, such as inclusions of living people on the list, doubts remain concerning both identities of casualties and actualities of deaths. This concern was recognised as serious even by the Hamas MoH Chief Data Scientist and Director of Information.

  9. SUPPRESSION OF DATA ON HAMAS CASUALTIES: Many Hamas combatant casualties were not listed, as key Hamas leaders known to have been killed were not listed as casualties. For example, some of Hamas leader Sinwar’s close family who were initially on the lists were taken off. If significant numbers of Hamas adult male combatants were not listed, then all estimates of the proportion of women and children casualties were actually lower.

  10. MISLEADING EXPLANATIONS OF DATA ANOMALIES: The MoH Director of Information gave various contradictory explanations for data anomalies. For instance, repeated explanations that each non-standard identification went through a verification process of approval by a judicial committee and that no natural deaths were included proved false. The MoH’s inability to explain its basic data-processing procedures hindered data analysis.

  11. ERRONEOUS FOREIGN ACADEMIC AND MEDICAL ACCOUNTS OF CIVILIAN DEATHS: Academic epidemiological studies forecast exaggerated Gazan casualties, vastly greater than actual casualties later reported by the Hamas Ministry of Health, and were based on erroneous modelling. Their predictions can be proved to be false retroactively by MoH data. Similarly, foreign doctors visiting Gaza from Western countries to provide medical assistance published allegations that Israeli Defence Forces targeted women and children; these proved to be inconsistent with MoH’s Gazan hospital datasets.

  12. DISINFORMATION SUCCESS: The Hamas Ministry of Health provided disinformation that served Hamas’s wartime narrative. For example, it presented all Gazan war casualties as civilians and none as combatants, falsely presented adult male casualties as women and children, and its datasets did not separately list deaths by natural causes nor disclose those killed by Hamas itself. Casualty data was deleted, shuffled across periods, recategorised across incomparable categories and included corrupting data. Yet the Ministry of Health civilian casualty numbers were widely accepted as having integrity and supporting allegations of genocide, thereby achieving a strategic victory for Hamas.

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RAMALLAH, May 2, 2025 (WAFA) – The Presidency strongly condemned Israel's ongoing aggression and escalating crimes against the Palestinian people across all areas, particularly in the Gaza Strip, as well as its continued policy of siege and starvation.

In a statement issued on Friday, the Presidency stressed that the international community must act swiftly to put an end to the unprecedented atrocities being perpetrated against the Palestinian people.

The Presidency also expressed its categorical rejection and firm condemnation of the looting and theft carried out by criminal gangs targeting warehouses and storage facilities of humanitarian aid designated for the people of Gaza.

It held Hamas-affiliated gangs primarily responsible, emphasizing that the Palestinian people will not forgive these disgraceful acts committed in such a critical time, especially in the besieged Strip.

The Presidency underlined that all such gangs and their affiliates are well known to the Palestinian public and will top the blacklist to be held accountable and brought to justice in accordance with the law at the appropriate time.

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Hamas barra barra!

Means Hamas out out

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With the violence and horrors this war has produced, many people struggle to see the meaning of even engaging in dialogue. After people witness the suffering of their own family, they often lose hope that the painful divide can ever be healed. Some even lose the desire for that healing to take place.

Perhaps it’s because they have never seen or been a part of a productive dialogue, one that comes from a place of love and empathy, and that creates light and compassion.

It's crucial for Israelis & Palestinians to be the ones communicating. Those without a direct connection to this conflict shouldn’t be “picking sides” but rather encouraging each side to come closer to the other.

The solutions clearly won't come from those who currently hold the power, so let us rise from below and access the power we would have, if we stood united.

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Palestinian advocates like to quip that the current war "didn't begin on October 7." That's true, of course, though unhelpful. It didn't begin in any one specific place. There are no singular first causes in history. When we choose the beginning of the story, we choose its framing and meaning.

For most Israeli Jews, the story of the current war might be said to have begun in the fall of 2000, in the great collapse of Oslo that still casts its long shadow on the Israeli political psyche.

This is that story.

tl;dw What was the second intifada about?

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