this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2025
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Actual Discussion
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The upvote/downvote system was always meant to be in relation to one agreeing/ disagreeing or liking/disliking with what one is interacting with, and I do believe that it is the inescapable function of it, regardless of how much thought one puts into it or not. One would have to find a bizarre thought process that could result in one avoiding that inevitability. Like someone who chooses to upvote what they disagree with or downvote what they agree with. Doesn't sound conceivable. Maybe in an algorithm driven platform one could use this as a thought experiment to find the opposite of oneself or one's own opposition in suggested content, but here without an algorithm to drive it, not even that is conceivable.
In regards to people piling on and using downvotes in a form of a brigade attack, similar to review bombing pieces of media... While I dislike this profoundly and find it enormously toxic, it is still within the realm of public expression. If one means to silence it, one means to suppress the freedom for others to express themselves as both individuals and as a group. As much as I find it despicable or toxic in a lot of contexts, I can't bring myself to justify the act of banning this form of expression in showing discontent. As I'm sure we've all found moments in which we agreed with a form of public outrage expression such as this one. But we're still all being baited into pack mentality which is an essential feature to maximise engagement in algorithmic platforms. And it is why it is a key requirement for me now that if I'm to join any platform that this feature needs to be non-existent. No algorithm driven platforms for me, thanks. If the user is not driving the experience, I find it repulsive, and so should anyone else.
As to banning in general... The user as an individual can block whomever they so desire, including entire instances. That is the control that anyone should be allowed to have as an individual. But not banning. Moderating or not, I find banning a suppression tool that can be used to suppress legitimate criticism, and it does happen all the time. Everywhere. So, I'm opposed to banning. Even in extreme cases of crude language and abhorrent and toxic behaviour. As I find that banning is sweeping the problem under the rug and not allowing it to be seen, identified, analysed and to further uncover the root causes of that said problem. Be that of an individual or any type of mob mentality. Back when I left reddit, I didn't leave because there were too many shitty users, I left because they were being rewarded with attention without examination. And the algorithm there was what did that and still does. There and everywhere else.
I'm 40. Even recently someone here reminded me of the concept of "Eternal September". I hadn't heard it in a long time. But I've seen it happen many times. The absence of an algorithm alone is enough to build a fence to stave off some of the largest problems of modern online spaces.
For anyone who doesn't know, not even the incel community was a toxic one when it started. In the late 90's it was just people sharing their insecurities in those forums. And it was composed of both male and female users seeking to find connection through the act of sharing their insecurities in an attempt to find a way out of loneliness. Cut to now and what the hell happened? I was too young back then to parse through the nuances and complexities of what was going on those forums. But one thing that I always pondered was if whatever happened there was the prelude to Gamergate. Because I think Gamergate was what "trained" algorithms to reinforce toxicity because it tracked the maximising of engagement that occurred, and then reinforced it because maximising engagement was what it was supposed to do. And just like people swept under the rug the incel community gone terribly wrong by dismissing it as some trivial internet phenomena, people did the same with Gamergate as they dismissed it as some trivial dumb gamer thing. And now look at where we are. But the fact is that this was and has been growing for a long time, people just didn't bother to assess it, and banning this to the outer margins was one of the reasons it grew. And then the algorithms came and rewarded and emboldened it all.
If I had to sum it up I would say... Modern civilization isolates people, which generates loneliness, which generates resentment for others and an enormous need for connection, which then finds connection in resemblance in the loneliness and resentment of others online, with the internet not solving the loniless that is seething underneath of it all and even reinforcing it. It's a loop. And it is not secular to men or young men, it's everyone without a social life and real connections that gets caught in this loop. And the algorithimc influence only accelerates it.
This all to say that banning people is another one of the contributors that leads people down darker and darker paths to find somebody that will listen to them. As uncomfortable as it might be to encounter this phenomena, I want all this in plain sight, and I want everyone of sound mind to try to engage and try to disarm what is causing the people in question to spiral down.
I know it's not pleasant nor easy, but if we avoid it, the result will be even more unpleasant and harder to deal with.
Just take a look at the world now... Loneliness was weaponized by the indecent, because the decent refused to engage. And it is still going on and on.
And the antidote can't be the continuous matching of resentment nor to allow the conditions that set this in motion to remain unacknowledged.
It absolutely is in the form of public expression, but if I see someone downvoting all the posts on a community I run - and they never contribute, I will use the powers granted to me as a steward of that community to ban them. Mass-downvoting can be a problem for small communities as it can bury threads.
As for the rest of your post, I simply don't believe it's my responsibility in the communities I run, that have particular purposes, to play house to toxic and otherwise repulsive people with behavioural issues because of the societal impacts of social media engendering loneliness and maladaptive behaviour as a type of cope. Most communities will have a topic-focus and need to ban people just on that basis. Or for spam. Or for trolling. Or for abusive behaviour.
I understand you being protective of the communities you manage and that it's a delicate task to begin with. And an effort that so often goes unrecognised and unappreciated.
But please, don't feel accused or worse, insulted, because I oppose banning. My opposition to it is not a personal stance against you or anyone else.
In relation to upvotes/downvotes, I use them to generate a quick dislplay of engagement in the communities I follow. But even though I do it, I still find that it is always a lazy form of engagement that is both unappealing and uninteresting and on top of it all it is a system that lacks clarity and it's easy to hijack with bots and brigade hits. And it is that way because it requires very little effort and time to do so. So I always found that we could do without that system and I would much prefer it.
In relation to banning, I think it is possible to devise other methods of guiding online spaces. I never like when I see a comment or a post removed. Never. I would much prefer that in the case of mods, a system of different flags used for flagging different circumstances was set in place. Like one for trolling, another one for spam, a different one for toxic and insulting use of language, and especially the one for the ban that upsets me the most out of all the banning choices, the off topic one. As I've said in another comment in this thread, I've never been banned from any community in any platform. But I have had comments removed where I was merely responding to other people and a new branch of conversation emerges amongst a few of us, only for our comments to be removed and our conversation ended with total disregard or respect for the conversation we were having. This is insulting to everyone involved, as any good conversation can lead us anywhere and these are not in person or broadcast events running on a clock. People can respond at their own leisure, and anyone who is not interested can just collapse the comment branch and move to the next branch within the thread. This way of fencing topics is a community killer and I've left quite a few communities over the years because of this type of moderation alone and not the community itself. It is not of my interest to be in a space where people are shut down, especially when everyone involved is being respectful and we're doing what these platforms were really intended for, which is to take in different perspectives from all types of people from anywhere in the world. If not for that, I have a life and this is of no interest to me to waste my time on if I'm not reaching and accessing people and realities that are not my own.
But this is my opinion. And by definition I'm a commenter not a poster. And I've never been interested in moderating. Because I like the equalitarianism of being amongst others sharing ideas without any disparity to differentiate us. Which is another reason as to why we could do without the lazy upvote/downvote system which interferes without engaging.
But I am going to repeat what I said at the beginning... I understand you being protective of the communities you manage and it's a really delicate task to begin with. And it truly is an effort that so often goes unrecognised and unappreciated.
So, regardless of what our differences of opinion might be, I'm still grateful for your efforts and I'm glad that there's still people around that care enough to try a hand at what is a hard bargain from the get go.