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All well and good, but what happens when someone comes to the meeting and says "we should end corruption and remove Trump, but I don't like DEI policies."
I'm guessing that will suddenly be added to the "root" cause and we're right back into splintering and purity spirals again.
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
"I'm a huge racist, but I don't like Trump. Can I join your group?"
No.
That person should go find a "Racists Against Trump" group.
This is another perfect example of the point I'm making. The slightest variation from perfect alignment with your complete set of ideals and you'd rather descend into a purity spiral and purge your own supporters than beat Trump.
It's a tale as old as history, alas.
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
I'm not going to partner with racists. I am not sorry.
If you are willing to work with fascists and racists, you are not my ally.
Be careful with insisting on "all or nothing", you often end up with "nothing." Like what happened in the 2024 election.
Also, I am not a racist. If you read my other comments you'll find that I'm in favor of the intent of DEI programs, they've just been implemented badly in many cases. But it's just like the virtue-signalling that Trump himself demands of his followers, the moment I said something that seemed slightly out of step I get ejected into the "enemy" camp. No compromise, no effort to understand nuance.
Well, bold strategy, good luck with your future elections I guess.
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
I'll take nothing over partnering with racists.
Winning with racists is losing.
And the racists winning without you is an even bigger loss.
@agamemnonymous
The biggest loss would be aligning with racists.
I'm wondering if some people actually understand what being on the progressive left even means.
Partnering with racists makes you a racist, win or lose.
No, the biggest loss would be fascists staying in power and eliminating racism by eliminating all but one race. Material conditions are much, much more important than ideals.
Is the life of every minority a worthy cost for standing by your principles? If, I hypothetically, you knew for a fact that losing would mean total ethnic cleansing, would you still refuse to accept the support of racists to elect someone you knew for a fact wouldn't do ethnic cleansing?
@agamemnonymous
Yes, we've all seen the Trolley Problem. It's bullshit.
Just like this entire question. People who hate DEI aren't trying to join the left. No one on the left has to reject racists because racists hate us too.
This whole thread is basically trying to split the left. But the funniest part is pretending the fascists and the racists aren't the same people.
That's not an answer. Is it worth it or not?
That's what you got from this? It's overwhelmingly people rightfully pointing out that these line-in-the-sand ideals are what's splitting the left.
@agamemnonymous
Sorry, but I'm not interested in hypothetical game theory.
I'm not going to apologize for drawing a line in the sand that excludes racists. It's a line that must be drawn.
If the left doesn't oppose racism, it stands for nothing.
Good, me either. My hypothetical has nothing to do with game theory or the trolley problem, I didn't know why you brought it up.
The hypothetical was about lines in the sand, and how they lead to absurdities. You still haven't answered the question, which indicates to me that you know quite well that if you did answer it, you would expose your idealism as hollow virtue signaling.
Racism isn't even the point. It was just an example of ultimatums doing more harm than good.
If the left can't act strategically and make incremental progress, its stances are materially irrelevant.
@agamemnonymous
Yes, racism is the point.
You're claiming that rejecting racists as allies means the left is obsessed with purity, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.
My point is that if you expect the left to accept racism, you probably don't know diddley shit about the left.
The left is all about incremental progress. That's all we've been able to do for centuries. Again, y'all don't seem to know anything about being left in the USA.
No, it isn't. Making every issue a core issue was the point. Drawing lines in the sand over dozens of single issues, contributing to the erosion of an effective voter base was the point.
Racist "allies" were an offhand example, offered by someone else, to illustrate that point. You don't win elections on principles, you win them on votes. Sometimes principles gain votes, sometimes they cost them, but at the end of the day it counts down to how many people pulled the lever.
You don't have to let the casual racists determine the ticket, you just have to let them pull the lever.
But again, it's not about racism. It's about every single stance that's equal to or objectively better than the electable alternative which is snubbed for not being good enough. When it's between Bad and Worse, and people are lining up by the millions for Worse, being one of 12,000 votes for Perfect isn't really helping anyone.
The call is coming from inside the house comrade. Big tent with Bad to keep Worse at bay until Good is prepped to make a break for it. Good isn't ready yet. Keep Worse out long enough for Good to gestate. Accelerationism is cringe and privilege-pilled.
@agamemnonymous
Yes, racism is the point.
The extreme centrists can ally with them. I won't.
Thanks for your advice on how to left properly. I think I'll ignore it and keep voting left in Democratic primaries. We just need more Mamdanis and fewer Fettermans.
No argument from me. I'm envious that New York has the political climate to support a Mamdani. I'm totally on board with more of his ilk in as many races as they can win.
But some districts aren't going to elect anyone left of Fetterman, and Fettermans are at least better than whatever R would have otherwise won that district. I'm all for whoever's the furthest left candidate that stands a reasonable chance of winning any given district.
Draw your lines in the sand after the office is filled by the least obstructive reasonable contender. Put their feet to the fire for reelection, don't gamble with the more obstructive contender.
Hopefully yes, because that's exactly what it is. You can't fight fascism with fascism lite.
If everything is "root" then nothing is.
You... you think racism and xenophobia aren't a root cause of this? If so, you should read a history book. Start from Nixon.
And here we go, a disagreement over policy balloons instantly into "racism and xenophobia" and an ally gets kicked out of the meeting because everything is black or white and no compromise is possible.
I find DEI policies to be a complicated topic, personally. I don't oppose the basic idea and motive behind them, but I think they've been implemented poorly and often turn into discrimination in their own right. Am I now classed as "Trump supporter" in your eyes? I've been called a Trump supporter because I don't like the recent Star Wars movies, so I'm sure a lot of people would indeed lump me in with him on that basis. And thus is proven the basic point about how Trump's opponents are destroying themselves without Trump's supporters having to lift a finger.
I honestly don't think dei did shit one way or another and was all just a show. That being said I agree. Lets all get behind the constitution including all the bill of rights and argue about the other things once we have enough rights to do so in a civilized manner.
"We need to get my rights now. Your rights can come after we can argue about them in a civilized manner." Setting aside the moral duplicity of this, it's just not how you build a coalition. For them to fight for your rights, you need to fight for theirs with equal commitment.
So seperation of powers, the bill of rights including speech, assembly, due process, etc. Those are just rights for one person to you? The point is if we can't express views and assemble or get a day in court then everything else is in the toilet. You need to get a clue.
These are rights for people who are economically well-off enough to exercise them. You don't, in fact, have the right to due process if you can't afford to miss work to exercise that right, and you don't have the right to speech if your three jobs don't leave you enough time to exercise that right. And you don't have any of these rights if you're being enslaved (and yes, it is slavery) by a for-profit prison. Constitutional political rights on their own are woefully insufficient to address the problems of minorities in America, and as they have repeatedly experienced, "later" more often than not is a synonym for "never." Point being: If you have no answer for systemic discrimination in your program, then yes you're not defending the rights of minorities experiencing that discrimination. The right of a black person to not be killed by the police is as or more important than your right to complain about the government.
This is a ridiculous stretch. This is exactly the path towards finding out what a real lack of rights are. This is the same all or nothing fallacious reasoning I see all the time online. I mean look what you said "If you have no answer for systemic discrimination in your program" now name a program that exists that 100% definitely has nothing that could be called systemic discrimination.
Because the current and ongoing abuses of US minorities aren't real, right? You're really outing yourself here.
There it is, folks, the all or nothing fallacious reasoning.
Yes. That is what im pointing out. Your reasoning cannot be assailed unless we are in a perfect state. You 100% caught the fallacy I was explaining. You resoning is minorities exist and I may not be one so im wrong. Im glad you get it because I will be honest its rare that happens when in an exchange with someone using your arguments.
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
Oh, so you're saying you personally don't like DEI policies. In that case I'm not necessarily calling you racist and xenophobic, but your seeming willingness to accept the results of past racism and xenophobia is definitely concerning. If I was running the meeting you wouldn't get kicked out, but your "can we not include DEI in our platform" would be met with an uncompromising "no." Before I explain why, do you understand the concepts of systemic racism and generational wealth?
You need such "discrimination" to undo the results of past discrimination. For example, did you know that despite being only ~0.7% of the population, Native Americans make up about 24% of the poverty population of the US? Is this not injustice? How do you rectify it without affirmative action (aka DEI)?
You're really, really intent on driving my point home here, aren't you?
I oppose Trump. I think he's the worst president the US has ever had and he needs to be stopped. But I expressed an unrelated view that is mildly in opposition to yours, and now that's the only thing you can think about. You're focusing entirely on attacking me on this issue.
Have you forgotten that this is about Trump, and about how the only way to defeat him is to get over these sorts of divisions and diversions?
To you this is about Trump. To others it's about the injustice they have suffered their whole lives that got worse under Trump but did not originate with him. Being able to laser-focus on Trump is a privilege; it assumes that the politically relevant parts of your experience before Trump were if not good then at least tolerable. This is not the case for a massive chunk of the population. I mean, hell, for example ICE kidnappings are nothing new; Trump is just performatively cruel about them. You can't take a stand against some injustice and expect the people experiencing the chunk you're letting go to help you. As a wise man once said:
Yes, we get it, you don't want any allies in your fight against Trump that aren't perfectly aligned with every part of your fight against Trump. You don't need to keep on driving it home now, you've amply demonstrated why Democrats just can't seem to get it together to oppose him.
The Democrats? Seriously? These Democrats? Sigh.
Yes, the party that is literally the only party that can possibly remove Trump due to America's two-party system. That party.
You don't support them removing Trump? Then you're fine with Trump. That's the reality of the situation, and your insistence that only some magical fairyland third party that happens to align perfectly with your ideals must be allowed to do it is - as I have repeatedly said - exactly the problem that this thread is about.
You really can stop illustrating it now, we all get it.
This comment chain is just chef's kiss
At best I was expecting a few "huh, yeah, that's a common pattern" responses.
This heap of "you're racist! Get out!" Rage I got instead illustrated my point better than I could have hoped for. Unfortunately. What a complete lack of self-awareness.
I wonder if anyone would change their mind if I "recanted" and started gushing about how I loved everything about how things were being handled on the left with no reservations or caveats? Or if, once branded an enemy, always an enemy?
In any event not a promising sign for future efforts to take Trump down. Probably for the best I'm not American, I'll just focus on staying out of the splash zone.
I'm holding out hope that the real world remains separate from social media. We shall see. And for the Americans in the audience, remember No Kings Oct 18!
You don't vote for the candidate you want to fight for you, you vote for the candidate that's easier for you to fight.
It's not about fighting fascism with fascism lite, it's about fighting fascism lite instead of full strength. Whatever you're going to fight with is going to be much more effective against a weaker enemy.