this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2025
28 points (100.0% liked)

SneerClub

1203 readers
15 users here now

Hurling ordure at the TREACLES, especially those closely related to LessWrong.

AI-Industrial-Complex grift is fine as long as it sufficiently relates to the AI doom from the TREACLES. (Though TechTakes may be more suitable.)

This is sneer club, not debate club. Unless it's amusing debate.

[Especially don't debate the race scientists, if any sneak in - we ban and delete them as unsuitable for the server.]

See our twin at Reddit

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

much more sneerclub than techtakes

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] corbin@awful.systems 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I'm going to be a little indirect and poetic here.

In Turing’s view, if a computer were to pass the Turing Test, the calculations it carried out in doing so would still constitute thought even if carried out by a clerk on a sheet of paper with no knowledge of how a teletype machine would translate them into text, or even by a distributed mass of clerks working in isolation from each other so that nothing resembling a thinking entity even exists.

Yes. In Smullyan's view, the acoustic patterns in the air would still constitute birdsong even if whistled by a human with no beak, or even by a vibrating electromagnetically-driven membrane which is located far from the data that it is playing back, so that nothing resembling a bird even exists. Or, in Aristoteles' view, the syntactic relationship between sentences would still constitute syllogism even if attributed to a long-dead philosopher, or even verified by a distributed mass of mechanical provers so that no single prover ever localizes the entirety of the modus ponens. In all cases, the pattern is the representation; the arrangement which generates the pattern is merely a substrate.

Consider the notion that thought is a biological process. It’s true that, if all of the atoms and cells comprising the organism can be mathematically modeled, a Turing Machine would then be able to simulate them. But it doesn’t follow from this that the Turing Machine would then generate thought. Consider the analogy of digestion. Sure, a Turing Machine could model every single molecule of a steak and calculate the precise ways in which it would move through and be broken down by a human digestive system. But all this could ever accomplish would be running a simulation of eating the steak. If you put an actual ribeye in front of a computer there is no amount of computational power that would allow the computer to actually eat and digest it.

Putting an actual ribeye in front of a human, there is no amount of computational power that would allow the human to actually eat and digest it, either. The act of eating can't be provoked merely by thought; there must be some sort of mechanical linkage between thoughts and the relevant parts of the body. Turing & Champernowne invented a program that plays chess and also were known (apocryphally, apparently) to play "run-around-the-house chess" or "Turing chess" which involved standing up and jogging for a lap in-between chess moves. The ability to play Turing chess is cognitively embodied but the ability to play chess is merely the ability to represent and manipulate certain patterns.

At the end of the day what defines art is the existence of intention behind it — the fact that some consciousness experienced thoughts that it subsequently tried to communicate. Without that there’s simply lines on paper, splotches of color, and noise. At the risk of tautology, meaning exists because people mean things.

Art is about the expression of memes within a medium; it is cultural propagation. Memes are not thoughts, though; the fact that some consciousness experienced and communicated memes is not a product of thought but a product of memetic evolution. The only other thing that art can carry is what carries it: the patterns which emerge from the encoding of the memes upon the medium.

I had the idea that while the supposed mind inside the computer could not eat the physical steak placed in front of it but I could, at the same time the person in the computer could eat the simulated steak but I could not. At least an hour later I arrived at the thought that perhaps I would need to simulate a universe so a computer person could eat a steak and that's a delightful absurdity.

I think there's a distinct disconnect between the idea that a machine can think and that there's a thinking machine that can do all the things that the whole set of humanity can. Even that is far more realistic than what AGI is described to be. It supposes a thinking machine, skilled in all human disciplines, without want or need beyond staggering amounts of electricity, computing machinery, and water. It is available for every conceivable thinking task at any time and perfectly willing to carry it out.

I don't think it's absurd to say a machine is thinking if it performs similar enough processes to a human. I do think it's absurd to think such a machine will be happy to write high school English papers for all eternity.