this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2026
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cross-posted from: https://pawb.social/post/42620143

Their lives are blissful... free from the burden of self doubt.

Revolutionary Spain represents an example of extremely effective armed resistance to the rise of fascist forces backed by Hitler and Mussolini, surviving for years. By contrast, many established democracies collapsed relatively quickly when invaded.

For more information, you can check out an anarchist FAQ's answer to the question, "Does revolutionary Spain show that libertarian socialism can work in practice?". For a more current example of an anarchist society working in practice, you could also check out the Zapatista movement, an anarchist society which today consists of at least 300,000 people.

If you're unfamiliar with anarchism, you probably have some misconceptions about it, so I encourage you to watch the Q&Anarchy video series by Thought Slime or have a look through an Anarchist FAQ, because it's almost definitely nothing like what you think.

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[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 33 points 2 days ago (3 children)

A couple of years sounds nice but no fully anarchist society has ever overthrown a state and remained stable long-term at a national level.

I get that its more of a 'process of radical change' rather than an objective 'end goal', but i always thought anarchy was strangely way too optimistic about human cooperation. No rules (obviously there would have to be some), police or concept of state? With the amount of people ive encountered on this planet, that requires everyone to think exactly the same or change their views accordingly at the same exact time. Oof good luck with that

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

A couple of years with the population of a large city.

The only way they'd be able to achieve their dream world is by conquering the planet and forcing everyone to obey, which is the antithesis of anarchy.

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

I agree. The idea is much more attractive when you are an angry teenager itching for action. Then you get older, learn more and learn more about how humans work.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Anarchists believe in rules, we just don't believe in rulers. We believe that the people who live and work in a place should decide the rules of that place, rather than the king or billionaire or whoever.

You should check out the Q&Anarchy video series, it addresses all of the concerns you have, and then some.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

But not every citizen is going to be able to individually weigh in on every decision, right? It would make more sense for people to pick someone to represent their interests in their stead.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

But not every citizen is going to be able to individually weigh in on every decision, right?

The idea is that every citizen is able and has a right to weigh in on every decision that affects them, if they want to. Anarchists generally propose direct democracy and/or consensus based decision making systems.

It would make more sense for people to pick someone to represent their interests in their stead.

The problem with representative democracy is that power corrupts, as we've clearly seen, again and again and again. Even a good person given power will almost definitely use it in some way to benefit themselves. It usually starts out in a very small, nearly harmless way, but progressively corruption worsens, especially as the need to cover up the previous acts of corruption becomes a concern.

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

How do you propose, in practice, to ensure that every citizen has a practical opportunity to weigh in on all the individual things affecting them, without giving them the option to have a representative?

Off the bat, I can think of a myriad of reasons this becomes prohibitively difficult for anything more than a few dozen people, but I'm honestly interested in hearing about a solution that could even conceivably work at a district (tens of thousands of people) not to speak of societal (millions) or international (billions) level.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

That's a really great question, thank you for asking.

I will begin, in the classic anarchist tradition, of pointing out that I do not have all of the answers - this always sounds like a bit of a cop-out, but don't worry, I'll answer your question directly in a moment, and it's really important to communicate this because it's super important: anarchism isn't some blueprint for a society that we follow by rote and dogmatically implement, but rather a base layer of ideas we can use. As per an anarchist FAQ

Anarchists have always been reticent about spelling out their vision of the future in too much detail for it would be contrary to anarchist principles to be dogmatic about the precise forms the new society must take. Free people will create their own alternative institutions in response to conditions specific to their area as well as their needs, desires and hopes and it would be presumptuous of us to attempt to set forth universal policies in advance.

Also, I'll point out that my objection is to representative democracy, i.e. the current system, where voters are mere passive spectators of occasional, staged, and highly rehearsed debates among candidates pre-selected by the corporate elite, who pay for campaign expenses. The public is expected to choose simply on the basis of political ads and news sound bites. Once the choice is made, cumbersome and ineffective recall procedures insure that elected representatives can act more or less as they (or rather, their wealthy sponsors) please. My objection is not with people representing the opinions of others, as long as representatives have very limited power, a limited mandate, and as long as that power can be withdrawn and representatives recalled in a quick and easy way.

Anyways, with that out of the way, I will approach your question by explaining one possible system out of infinitely many which are possible.

Anarchists believe in structuring things from a bottom-up approach, so let's start at the bottom - each neighborhood could have a participatory community which makes decisions for that neighborhood around practical, everyday decisions that directly affect shared living. For example, maintenance of shared areas, the use of community buildings/rooms, improvements to the neighborhood, etc.

Of course, neighborhoods do not exist in a vacuum - neighborhoods would want to work together to share resources and to collaborate to achieve greater goals, so confederations of neighborhoods could be formed. Each neighborhood could select one or more delegates to attend confederation meetings and speak on the behalf of the neighborhood, but not make decisions on behalf of them. Instead, each delegate would attend the confederation meeting, and meet with their neighborhood to bring them news of what was discussed at the delegation meeting. Then, in the neighborhood meetings, each neighborhood would come to their own decisions around what should happen at the confederation level, and a delegate - not necessarily the same person as before - would take those decisions, questions, concerns and discussion points back to the confederation, where either a consensus would be reached, or further discussion - which could again, be brought back to the neighborhood to share. In fact, rotating the role of delegate would be a really good idea, so that multiple people can get a better idea of the issues in the wider community and understanding of how the bottom-up power structure functions.

The cool thing about anarchism is that we can experiment on these ideas and try out different things in a very responsive, small scale way, since the lower levels of participatory communities are small, even bad ideas have very limited harm if/when implemented, and other communities can learn from the failures of others.

I hope this makes sense, and I hope you see how this would differ from representative democracy. The main difference is where the power lies - under anarchism, the power to make decisions always remains with the people as a whole, rather than being concentrated into the hands of a very select few.

If you are interested in learning more, have any doubts about problems with the ideas I have outlined, or some other approaches which could be taken, I would strongly encourage you to have a read of an Anarchist FAQ's section about what an anarchist society would look like - I can pretty much guarantee that any question you have is answered somewhere in there, it's nothing if not comprehensive!

[–] SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I used to go out with someone who lived in a commune, which operated how you describe here - everybody gets a say in every decision. It was very equitable, but nothing *ever * got done. Part of the roof was falling down and the exposure to the elements was damaging the building at that point. The longer it was exposed the more damage was being done. The wall was starting to crumble. If it fell down it could damage as-yet undamaged parts of the building. A couple of families had already had to move to a different part of the building

At that point it had been 10 years and no decisions had been made. No decisions were close to being made. Their home was literally being destroyed and potentially endangering people -they were and had been no issues more pressing - and nothing has been done for a decade

That was ~15 families living together. And you think it’s feasible to scale that up to millions of people by increasing the group size and number of steps?

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Of course, neighborhoods do not exist in a vacuum - neighborhoods would want to work together to share resources and to collaborate to achieve greater goals, so confederations of neighborhoods could be formed. Each neighborhood could select one or more delegates to attend confederation meetings and speak on the behalf of the neighborhood, but not make decisions on behalf of them. Instead, each delegate would attend the confederation meeting, and meet with their neighborhood to bring them news of what was discussed at the delegation meeting. Then, in the neighborhood meetings, each neighborhood would come to their own decisions around what should happen at the confederation level, and a delegate - not necessarily the same person as before - would take those decisions, questions, concerns and discussion points back to the confederation, where either a consensus would be reached, or further discussion - which could again, be brought back to the neighborhood to share. In fact, rotating the role of delegate would be a really good idea, so that multiple people can get a better idea of the issues in the wider community and understanding of how the bottom-up power structure functions.

This sounds like a really good idea, but let me point something out: For the sake of efficiency, it would quickly make sense for most neighbourhoods to give their delegate a mandate of the type "We want something like this, but you can make minor changes to points X, Y, and Z in order to reach an agreement with the others". For example: We want the new road to be a gravel road that's about 2 m wide, but you can decide the exact quality of gravel, and whether the road is 1.5 m or 2.5 m in the meeting with the others. Whether we have light posts every 40 or 80 meters isn't so important, as long as the road is well lit (just make sure the lights are strong enough if they're widely spaced).

Further, once we get to scaling this up from the neighbourhood level to a scale of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, we're going to get progressively more details and specialist tasks that need ironing out: Should there be import tariffs on any goods? If so, which? What should the tax be? Should it be progressive? If so, how should it scale? What should be the standard bridge-height on a highway (very useful to standardise if you want any kind of long-haul transport)? How many students should there be per teacher in classrooms at different grade levels, and what kind of education should we require from those teachers? etc. etc. etc. This absolutely massive number of questions that need answering, will in practice demand that your delegate receives some kind of mandate to make decisions within the limits of what you've decided.

The larger the society in question, the wider those limits will need to be in order for the society to be able to reach any kind of consensus within a reasonable time frame. If every detail needs to go neighbourhood meeting (O(100 people) => neighbourhood confederation (O(10 000) people) => community meeting (O(100 000) people) => national meeting (O(1 000 000) people) and back for every iteration, the kids are going to be grown before you've decided whether a 5th grade teacher needs minimum high-school level or university level mathematics in order to teach science classes, or even before you've decided on whether this should be something you coordinate at the national level or not for that matter.

Once you start giving your delegates a mandate to make decisions within some pre-determined limits.... you've reinvented representative democracy.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

For the sake of efficiency, [let's just revert to representative democracy]

Well, if efficiency in decision making is more important than freedom, we may as well just have a dictator, no? With that said, there are anarchist traditions which do propose systems where delegates have limited mandates, you can learn more about that on an anarchist FAQ.

I have explained why representative democracy is a system which inevitably leads to corruption and I have outlined for you a basic framework for one possible bottom-up system of direct democracy/consensus decision making. I've stated my case, and I think I explained it quite well. I understand that it's a lot to take in and it seems difficult to achieve, but I fully believe that this system would work very well. It has worked in the past, and it is working right now.

As I like to say, I can lead you to water, whether you drink is your prerogative. I hope you take time to reflect on it, and change your mind.

Either way, I wish you all the best, much love, solidarity forever!

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

For the sake of efficiency, [let’s just revert to representative democracy]

I think that's pretty reductionist to the argument I was making. I was arguing (with a long list of concrete examples) for why I think the system you're outlining will either inevitably revert to representative democracy over time, or be incapable of working at a large (millions of people) scale. I'm not saying that none of what you said has merit, or that the form of representative democracy we work with today is the optimal system.

I think both of us (and anyone that has worked in a system where groups send delegates to super-groups to represent them) is familiar with the concept that our group decides on boundaries for what we think are acceptable decisions, and then gives our delegate a mandate to come to an agreement within those boundaries. The simple reason is that negotiations take extremely long if every iteration needs to go up and down the entire decision chain, so the negotiators (delegates) need some kind of flexibility to come to an agreement. I provided plenty of examples of situations where this is applicable.

To be honest, it seems a bit to me like you might have a slightly narrow view on what "representative democracy" entails. I would argue that once you have a delegate representing your interests with any kind of leeway to make decisions (that is, they're actually a delegate, not just a messenger), you're working with representative democracy. You can have a wide range of ways to decide who the delegate should be, how broad their mandate should be, and how long they function for. However, if the delegate has any kind of mandate outside of being a messenger, I think it stands that you're electing (choosing one person from a group by consensus is a form of election) a representative to represent your interests, and thus have a representative democracy.

I'm the first to admit that power can corrupt, and that any representative democracy should have solid mechanisms in place to prevent the emergence of a "ruler class" (which most representative democracies today have in some form or other). Doing stuff like limiting the duration and length of terms is of course one option. At the end of the day, it largely boils down to a tradeoff between efficient management vs. direct involvement of everyone affected. Like you said, the most efficient decision making system is probably a dictatorship, but at that point we've tipped over into the opposite ditch (no involvement from the people affected).

For the record, I'm not the person downvoting you :)

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 1 points 17 hours ago

Fair enough! Personally, I am all in favor of slow decision making if it means everyone is free and we can live in a world without rulers, but if you disagree, that's fine. I'm sure you believe that some sort of compromise is possible where you can somehow have representative democracy without inevitable extreme corruption, but we can agree to disagree on that.

For the record, I’m not the person downvoting you :)

I haven't downvoted you, either! I never downvote people who disagree with me in good faith..Might interest you to know that upvotes/downvotes are a matter of public record, too - you can use e.g. https://lemvotes.org/ to see who has upvoted and downvoted a comment/post.

Thanks for a pleasant and civil discussion, it's always a breath of fresh air <3

[–] Triumph@fedia.io 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Tyranny of the majority, especially considering that very many people are shit.

[–] the_abecedarian@piefed.social 5 points 2 days ago

not every direct democratic system is majority rule. there are lots of ways to make decisions! remember, we don't need perfection, just something better than the tyranny of the minority we live under now. we can improve from there.

anyone seeking to sabotage decision making in bad faith can be handled however a given commune has decided to handle antisocial behavior (rehab, restorative justice, offering therapy, etc).

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 2 points 1 day ago

To add to the very good comment you already received, I would also point you towards an anarchist FAQ's answer to the question, "Won't there be a danger of a "tyranny of the majority" under libertarian socialism?". I will share a few choice paragraphs from there, but I encourage you to check it out yourself as it goes into a lot of detail:

Participation and self-management is the only way that majorities can come to see the point of minority ideas and for seeing the importance of protecting minority freedoms. This means that any attempt to restrict participation in the name of minority rights actually enforces the herd mentality, undermining minority and individual freedom rather than protecting it.

In the current system, voters are mere passive spectators of occasional, staged, and highly rehearsed debates among candidates pre-selected by the corporate elite, who pay for campaign expenses. The public is expected to choose simply on the basis of political ads and news sound bites. Once the choice is made, cumbersome and ineffective recall procedures insure that elected representatives can act more or less as they (or rather, their wealthy sponsors) please.

By contrast, in a libertarian society decisions are made following public discussion in community assemblies open to all. After decisions have been reached, outvoted minorities -- even minorities of one -- still have ample opportunity to present reasoned and persuasive counter-arguments to try to change the decision. This process of debate, disagreement, challenge, and counter-challenge, which goes on even after the defeated minority has temporarily acquiesced in the decision of the majority, is virtually absent in the representative system, where "tyranny of the majority" is truly a problem. In addition, minorities can secede from an association if the decision reached by it are truly offensive to them.

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Doesnt address the insane amount of optimism with no long-term proof. Zapatista sounds great, but they are focused on the self-determination of indigenous Mayan communities. Its small and niche, different to an entire country with different races all mixed in with different views

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Anarchism is completely compatible with individuals acting according to their self interest - indeed, egoist anarchism is entirely centered around that concept, but other anarchist traditions are fully compatible with self-interest. An incredible amount of optimism in human co-operation and selflessness is not necessary.

they are focused on the self-determination of indigenous Mayan communities

You've unintentionally touched on what makes anarchism so stable - by its very nature because it is built by the people who live and work in an area, it can be perfectly attuned to meet their needs! An anarchist society formed in a city would be completely different from one formed in the rural countryside. It is not an imposed blueprint for society that follows some dogma, it's an approach where everyone involved in the society has a say in how it's run, and no one has power over others. That's all!

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So stable*

*for a couple of years

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Zapatista sounds great, but...

for a couple of years

Put some respect on your elders.

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

It is not a nationwide example of anarchy, so no

[–] anise@quokk.au 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

that is a really weird bar to have to clear. "well, your anarchy doesn't conform to our borders, so it doesn't count" ???

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

challenging something that has never worked long term, yeah really weird (a community is a nice example if thats all the proof you think you need). If you think it works, go for it mate. Teach your neighbour how to make bread and trade in seashells but youll have to cross your fingers each day that everyone in your community continues to think like you do.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You're a perfect example of the original meme, just moving the goalposts constantly.

I haven't forgotten the time you refused to accept that a society without homelessness would be good so I have no doubt you're arguing in bad faith at this point.

I hope one day you'll figure things out and join us, but until then, we'll fight for you. Much love and solidarity forever!

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Oh yeah lol you're the person posting about ideologies in a shitpost thread.

Also my issue was with how you were wording things, just like the other person you were agruing with, but we were in agreement.

Nah its ok, you can leave me out if it. Cheers.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social -1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

my issue was with how you were wording things

Yes, the word "good" is so inscrutable and mysterious, whatever could it mean.

The other guy making that argument literally self-identified as a narcissist, by the way.

but we were in agreement.

[–] the_abecedarian@piefed.social 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

anarchism rejects nations, so why should its success be judged based on national borders? a successful society is av successful society

[–] OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world -1 points 2 days ago

You're right, i guess that's why it's been so successful.

[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Nobody sane wants to live like the Zapatistas.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"You are in Zapatista territory in rebellion. Here the people command and the government obeys."

Speak for yourself, because that sounds fucking awesome, to me.

[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There are signs and magazines in North Korea declaring it the happiest and most prosperous nation on earth, would you not rather live in the happiest place?

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social -1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

North Korea is an oppressive, totalitarian state, with limited freedoms, so no, I would prefer not to live there, even if everyone there truly was happy, because I believe in freedom.

That is why I oppose liberal ideology, because it enables the wage slavery of the working class for the benefit of the ruling class.

Do you have any actual objections to life under the Zapatistas, or are you just going to continue vagueposting about how it must be bad because you decided it must be?

[–] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

That's not what their sign says, though. You posted a Zapatistas sign that says it's free and uncorrupt, and the DPRK has the same sign.

The Zapatistas live in isolation surrounded by a bunch of men with guns, it sounds less like freedom and more like constant threat of violence to keep people in line.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The people have armed themselves to protect themselves from people like you. They are more free than you can possibly imagine, and that idea terrifies you.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 0 points 1 day ago

The people have armed themselves to protect themselves from people like you.

The People's Stick, I see.

They are more free than you can possibly imagine, and that idea terrifies you.

Maybe the post-1950s PR campaign was unnecessary all along.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Do you have any actual objections to life under the Zapatistas, or are you just going to continue vagueposting about how it must be bad because you decided it must be?

You do realize that the Zapatistas, before this recent trouble with "Blaming the government (that they don't need) for not controlling the cartels" tightly restricted entry to and interaction with their territory from outsiders, with journalists only allowed to ask questions when accompanied by EZLN guards?

There's a long laundry-list of problems with how the Zapatistas have 'settled in' to their role since the turn of the century.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Oh no, they protect themselves, how terrible. Is this the best you got? The US is executing their own people in the street and has one of the largest imprisoned populations in the world, but anarchists have a border and rules that were collectively decided by the residents to protect people?

They've literally hosted international conferences this year. I literally cannot with you people.

Please disengage, I'm sick of the bad faith bullshit.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They’ve literally hosted international conferences this year.

tightly restricted entry to and interaction with their territory from outsiders, with journalists only allowed to ask questions when accompanied by EZLN guards?

You wanna point out to me where that contradicts "holding a conference"?

I literally cannot with you people.

Yeah, sorry that you haven't been following anything except the endless glazing of Subcommandante Marcos. I understand that PR of the internet age is much more compelling to our generation than the staid 1950s-level PR of former ML states, but I would suggest that you learn to think for yourself nonetheless.

Please disengage, I’m sick of the bad faith bullshit.

"Bad faith is when I'm contradicted"

Okay.

[–] the_abecedarian@piefed.social 2 points 2 days ago

read some of the links OP helpfully posted to clear up the misconceptions about anarchism you display in your comment