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Alec Baldwin indicted for involuntary manslaughter in fatal gunfire on film set
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 19 Jan 2024
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Lowest bidder aside, how is this clearly not the armorer's fault front and center? It was her responsibility to handle the set props. What Baldwin paid them is irrelevant to what she claimed she could provide and was obligated to provide under contract.
She is literally the one to (a) claim the firearm was safe, but (b) load it with live ammunition.
???
Work in the industry, doc side but this is pretty basic producer stuff. This is 100% on the armorer and the only reason they keep trying to charge Baldwin is the legal grey area of the state they filmed in. Had this happened in a state with more production (Georgia, Louisiana, California) there would be a more direct way for prosecutors to go after the correct person. Georgia and California specifically has legal precedent from deaths on set like this.
One of the reasons credits are so long is because we hire people to maintain a safe set - think of it like a foreman for safe worksite in construction (which we also hire often). We hire a ton of people for safety from actual police to medics and rescue personnel.
Hiring an armorer is SPECIFICALLY to avoid situations like this. Because the production company is like "hey you know what? I don't think me, some producer knows how to use a gun safely, I should hire someone who's certified to do that." It's not some token job, they're supposed to be trained on how to properly load the powder of the blank rounds, how to mark and flag hot guns and dead props, and pretty fucking much rule #1A is never bring live ammo anywhere near your set.
Baldwin should not be held criminally liable and any half decent entertainment lawyer will settle that. Now civil liability, that's certainly more realistic. But even then it should be the production LLC not any 1 person.
In your experience, have you ever seen the responsibility of set prop safety fall on the producer and not be delegated to someone else? Based on what you write here, I assume not which would confirm my initial belief.
... Except for one other guy taking a gun he knew nothing about, pointing it at a person and pulling the trigger.
No, I think they are both guilty. Obviously not equally.
If the common judicial practice is different - then maybe some day there'll be a new precedent.
Sure, it's a responsible viewpoint to assume that any gun is loaded and dangerous, even until the moment you yourself have cleared it... but the case is lacking mens rea, because who in their right mind would put a hot gun as a prop on a film set? While Baldwin killed Hutchins, I find it hard to draw any criminal negligence from it.
There's one nuance there, they weren't filming or something. They were playing with that gun. While the armorer is to blame, if they'd show a little respect, one person would be alive.
They weren't playing. They were blocking a scene.
https://lemmy.zip/comment/6483250 - same thing if you are waving a gun as a means of expression
You've been corrected on this. Will you correct your statement or double down? I'm placing bets already
Fuck off with that tone, every piss stain is so pretentious on the web.
Bet that you are not a useless ape.
"You've been corrected" is your judgement and your opinion.
Too bad that’s not what happened. What do you get out of making up stories like this?
An article I read right after this happened (which very well could have been a hit piece) said she (the armorer) was in her early 20s and would fuck around and go shooting with the prop guns when filming wasn't happening. So... kind of. Yes
Sounds like there's lots of blame to go around
She's guilty, he probably has some liability being the producer.
He was far from the only producer. Quite frankly I doubt very much he did any real work besides acting.
The liability belongs to the company as a whole, absent some slam dunk of a memo where Baldwin personally said "Hire this lady, she's my cousin's kid, also I personally know she falsified her credentials but fuck it."
It's essentially a question of "who's in charge around here and whose ass will be on the line?" Nearest example I can think of is if your boss tells you to deliver something and you get into a car accident, your work covers you with their insurance (USA!)
Even more concisely summed up with an incredibly apropos phrase, "if you give a monkey a gun, you don't get to blame the monkey when someone gets shot."
It is, but groveling, weak sycophants hate Baldwin for mocking their traitor god.
One of the biggest rules of gun safety is treat every gun as if it's loaded even when as far as you know it isn't. Regardless of how you think the ratio of culpability falls or who should be held legally accountable, he is at least partially responsible because he was the person holding the gun and aiming it at someone.
That's rule number one on the shooting range, It's not quite the same in film or on stage.
In those cases, actors have to trust their prop master or armorer.
Those are the people specifically hired to make sure the gun or the bullets are fake.
Baldwin was handed a gun, and specifically told that it was cold. The person handing it over even called out for the entire set that it was a cold weapon. The director then immediately called places. Because that's how it works.
But the gun was not cold.
Now, the person whose job it was to maintain those weapons was incompetent. Baldwin didn't hire her, he didn't hire anyone. He was one of 10 producers and mostly handled fundraising and script changes.
But he made fun of Trump a few times, and was involved in a gun death in a Trump friendly area. In California the armorer would be facing these charges, and would have faced them as soon as the initial investigation was over, not several years later.
Source please? Everywhere I've read about this it was said that he took a gun to play with it. Not a part of any procedure.
Of course if it was like what you are describing, then I'm wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_shooting_incident
Not sure where you got your series of events from
My memory changed it a bit, but thanks for your link, as the quoted part is what I was trying to remember.
Did you miss the part a bit earlier where it said he was handed a gun and told it was cold?
The fact that he was asking questions of the director about how he was going to draw and "fire" the gun is pointless, because everyone on set thought it was cold.
There are a lot of statements quoted. What I quoted was what I remembered reading. Anyway, the fact of what he actually did that was criminal is not being contested by anyone here, it's that it was criminal, as if responsibility for any action at all can be offloaded via documents signed. That'd be false.
Except that Baldwin really didn't do anything criminal, despite what you say.
There are a lot of court cases about this out of California and Georgia. Liability for the death is squarely on the armorer.
Unfortunately, this happened in a Trump friendly state, and the prosecutor wants to make a name for themselves by sticking it to the guy who made fun of Trump.
Saying "bang" and waving a gun is what I call "criminal stupidity".
Everybody and their dog made fun of Trump.
Except he wasn't just waiving the gun around.
He's an actor, and he was practicing the movements necessary for the scene.
It's called rehearsal. It's normal.
He said bang, because that would have been the end of the scene. Man points a gun at the camera, says his lines, and then pulls the trigger.
You've seen that exact scene in dozens of films and TV shows.
OK, see my other comment a minute ago.
The conservative media outlets have been spreading bullshit about this. They hate Baldwin for making fun of donnie diapers.
He is the producer.
Hi hired her. He tolerated crew using real bullets on set for playing target practice during down time.
The boss created unsafe conditions, and killed his employee through negligence.
I find that to be a pretty big leap. When she took the role of armorer she assumed all responsibility on set to ensure the safety of the crew, which was the entire point in Baldwin hiring someone to that position in the first place. Her gross negligence if not outright fraud is a result of her own actions and nobody else.
At most I'd give 20% responsibility to Baldwin for not examining her background more closely.
I completely agree with you that technically the armorer is at fault traditionally in these types of situations and a jury may in fact find that to be true in the eyes of the law eventually, but I find it interesting that in this case the armorer was a younger attractive female on a rough n tumble set and I can only assume there was pressure on her from the other people there shooting if not Baldwin himself to go shooting. Hell she may not have even known the guns were used but that's not really an excuse.
What is a meditating factor is what Baldwin said, told her and ordered her to do. Remember he's her boss. I'm assuming there's evidence he told her to do blah. If so imo he deserves more than 20%.
The way I see it, if your responsibility is the safety of firearms and someone tells you to violate that responsibility, that reflects a lot on you and you're not cut for the job. If there is a contradiction between what the boss tells you and that which you're held liable for, you better choose wisely. You're hired for this role specifically when death is on the line no less.
Why do you think the grand jury, which certainly has seen more evidence than you, felt differently?
The Grand Jury is subject to a narrow perspective of evidence framed solely by the Prosecutors. The bar is pretty low.
If Grand Juries were fullproof, why even proceed to a trial...?
And it's quite possible I'm missing something, sure. I don't really have a horse in this race either way.
A grand jury will in a ham sandwich
I would still say Baldwin is at fault since he wasn’t doing what he could to ensure safety on the set with real guns and live ammunition. The armorer fucked up 100% for sure, but they shouldn’t be the first and last line for following safety policies and SOPs - anybody in a leadership or managerial role should also be enforcing it.
I find it highly unlikely that a film producer is going around checking weapon props on the vast, vast majority of Hollywood sets. I would be shocked if that ever happens.
People were literally walking off set before the shooting happened because of this exact safety issue. Baldwin knew about the safety issue. He ignored it.
He's negligent for not firing the negligent armorer the moment he undoubtedly heard about there being live ammo on set.
He doesn’t need to check them, but he can certainly go “hey, make sure we’re following safety protocols!” so others can actually do that work - or at least, Baldwin can cover himself by saying he was trying to follow safety protocol.
You say it’s the armorer’s fault (which it is), but Baldwin still could’ve done more to ensure safety on his end without checking every weapon prop like you said. Ask yourself: if the people in charge don’t follow policy and procedure, do you think the people below them would?
What policy/procedure did Baldwin not follow exactly?
I would hate to work under you. I hope you're not in charge of anything OSHA related.
Ok. I'd hate to have employees who need convenient scapegoats to deflect their basic job responsibilities for which they were, you know, hired to perform.
Baldwin was one of 10 producers and was not the hiring director. He, in fact, hire her.
I've heard that there were live fire practices on set, but could never back that up.
What I did find the last time this came up was a write-up about how there were reloads intermixed with the dummy rounds, re-loads that had been used on a completely different film shoot, where the actors of that film were walked tough some target practice with live rounds, so that they would better understand how a gun firing live rounds would kick.
Then a coffee can full of mixed live and dummy rounds ended up kicking around for a couple of years before being sent out to the Rust filming location, and the armorer didn't know how to check the bullets. Or didn't know that she had to. She was told that everything sent was a dummy round.
There were a bunch of live rounds found mixed into props, including Baldwin's ammo belt.
All of them looked like the standard dummy round.
real bullets. . .
playing . . .
That's fucked up.
I find it very hard to understand the attitudes some people have towards firearms.