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[–] Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I hate religion. I hate ""spirituality"" (what does that even mean?). It makes my skin crawl. I hate that people willfully delude themselves into believing things that they clearly know to not be true, on some level, and then argue wholeheartedly for their actual truthfulness. It's the most nonsensical practice I can imagine someone engaging in and I struggle to see people who do so as willful, rational human beings. How could they be? Just look at all the people in this thread searching for one that "speaks to them as if they can just pick the nature of reality out for themselves. How in the world can people do that and not make themselves crazy with cognitive dissonance?

BUT. What I do understand is that people are searching for structure, community and a sense of reverence towards... something. There have been attempts at replicating that experience sans-nonsense, really just worshiping the world itself, the universe, things that are objectively real, but every time it's tried it's mostly ridiculed and laughed at by the sort of jackass atheists who can't even empathize with that longing. It's sad.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

spirituality, as i understand it, tends to be more mindful/spiritual practices minus any typically associated religious aspects. for example, meditating and yoga would be typical examples of this, but i think spirituality can also be watching the sun rise/set, going for a walk in the woods, or taking a hot bath. anything that can help bring you to a more peaceful place of self reflection and introspection could be considered spiritual in my opinion.

how can you say that you hate that while not even knowing what it is?

[–] Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I do all of those things. I choose not to call them spiritual because to a lot of people, spirituality implies a belief in the supernatural, spirits, some nonsense about vibrations, etc.
What you're describing is just self-care and self-administrated mental health practices.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

i don’t really think you get to label others’ experiences ;) imo these experiences tend to feel different to me- more checking in with my physical, mental, and emotional health, as well as feeling connected to the earth and environment around me. that’s what makes them spiritual to me personally- they just feel like more than a regular walk in the woods or hot bath. it’s like i’m connecting with something deeper inside myself and in the world itself.

[–] Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Well, yes, they're certainly more than a regular walk in the woods or a bath, which is why I said self-administered mental health practices. Meditation be like that. Still no spirits involved, which is what the word spiritual implies.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

i feel like the spirit involved is my own, hence why i would consider it spirituality. but it doesn’t look like this is going anywhere though, so i hope you have a lovely day :)

[–] alanine96@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm very curious to hear about the attempts you're referencing in your second paragraph!

[–] Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Sorry I didn't get to this comment earlier!

The broadest answers to that question are Humanism and Scientific Pantheism, which I'm partial to. That's what a lot of atheists have made a whole lot of fun of.

Of course humanism is still sort of opposed to what I'm talking about in thr second paragraph,, or at least most humanists would be, as far as I'm aware. And most "earth religions" fall under some form of what I'd call spirituality.

In the U.S., at least, I've started attending my very local Unitarian Universalist church and I think they're your best actual practical bet. As much as I whine about most religion, I deeply respect the UU's commitment to include everyone, atheists included, and so I do my best to respect what people believe and what they want to talk about (which naturally doesn't usually involve trying to convert people). Third spaces are too important to keep people out because of some sense of sectarianism.

And, of course, Buddhism is at it's heart a very skeptical religion to the point that some interpret more as a philosophy, which is how I choose to see it, and it's a philosophy and a practice that modern psychology owes a whole lot to (and should probably yank even more from). It's literally just a framework of how to stop "suffering" and live a good life regardless of whether it seems like a good life externally. I do mostly stick to more secularized, almost new-age interpretations of it, I love the blog Deconstructing Yourself for being thoroughly dedicated to "Nondualism" while rejecting the schizo craziness it usually brings with it. But I like to learn from something closer to primary sources, too...

For which I'm relying on the Buddhist University. Of the two "original" explicitly supernatural elements of Buddhism, reincarnation was an assumption of the culture the Buddha was born into, and with that stripped away, Karma as cause and effect is just determinism without any "you're screwed because your past self screwed up". The second chapter of What the Buddha Taught (which is a great book) practically made me a Buddhist by illuminating just how dedicated the Buddha was to making sure people actually remained skeptical of him, only searching for what they could personally prove not really caring whether something was his idea or anyone else's. This is a quote (supposedly from him, not that it matters) that sums it up:

Yes, Kālāmas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kālāmas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea: "this is our teacher". But, O Kālāmas, when you know for yourselves that certain things are unwholesome, and wrong, and bad, then give them up... And when you know for yourselves that certain things are wholesome and good, then accept them and follow them.

There's also a story about him telling off one of his followers for insisting that he reveal the "mysteries of the universe". He was pretty much like look, you're being a dumbass, that's won't help you live well, that's not important." I can respect that.

[–] Dee_Imaginarium@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I used to be a pretty staunch atheist, but had an experience earlier in life that changed my perception. I spent months trying to find a scientific explanation for what I experienced, something within the realm of physics for it to make sense, but could not. Even today I try to debunk my own experience but I know that it happened and have somebody else who can confirm it as well. I can't ignore that evidence, but I also have no way to prove it to others so I make no effort to "convert" anybody to my way of thinking. Simply explain what happened and if you believe me cool, if not, also cool. We all have our own views.

I don't know the nature of the universe, I do know that we don't know a whole lot about the universe though. To me, the atheists that claim with certainty that there is nothing beyond the veil of our reality sound just as ignorant and stubborn as the orthodox priests of any major religion though. As a science minded person, you should always try to keep an open mind.

Today I would describe myself as a scientific pantheist, I guess, if we have to put labels on things. Which is to say that I believe that what we see as the universe is synonymous with what we think of as God. That science, mathematics, physics, etc are the languages in which "God" speaks to us.

[–] MeowKittyWow@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

It's complicated. I am not religious, and have considered myself to be an atheist for most of my life so far. I also have strong negative feelings towards most mainstream religions, because of their long-standing hate towards people like me and my loved ones. I also grew up in a Presbyterian church and honestly, fuck everything about calvinist-derived theology.

But, it is hard to shake some amount of magical thinking. And honestly, if it brings joy, and isn't harming people around you, why not? So lately I've been leaning into it a bit, in a vaguely neopagan direction. I definitely don't take any of it literally, but if a sprinkle of it helps keep me from descending into despondency, I will shrug and go with it. It isn't rational, but I am a human, not a robot.

I have also considered finding a local unitarian universalist church or something along those lines. Somewhere that is chill with me as I am. The last few years have been isolating and I think I need more community in my life to thrive.

[–] gingerrich@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

I'm apatheistic when it comes to if there is a god and/or gods and I actively dislike all organised religion. Religion has no place in modern society and causes so much suffering. It's time has been and gone.

[–] HalJor@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Absolutely not. Raised in a strictly Catholic household and 12 years of Catholic education but a) none of the religious education sank in* and b) my personal experience turned me off to religion-as-an-institution entirely.

Footnote*: Religion class was typically my worst grade in school, except for 8th grade where the teacher gave me an A despite low scores on most of the tests. When I asked her why she thought I deserved an A, she said that she gave grades based on our ability to grasp the material and she thought I was doing as well as I could. I cried -- not because this meant I was doing well, but because I was given something I knew I didn't earn and I didn't even want an A in a subject I fundamentally disagreed with.

[–] marin@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

I was born and raised Roman Catholic and attended Catholic schools up to college. I feel very disconnected from the religion because of how it upholds discriminatory views against gender minorities. There was also a lot of fear instilled in me when I was younger and I just grew out of it eventually. It didn't make sense that I would do good just because a higher being promised salvation when I die. There well also too many hypocrites around me who would go to church religiously but never practice the teachings from the priest.

I now try to make sense of life as I see it and I still practice spirituality through Tarot. It's brought me a lot of peace but I still struggle every now and then

[–] somefool@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Not at all. First of all... Religion isn't a huge thing in my country - or at least not in the area I grew up in - so we never went to church or anything (although my parents went through the motions with the baptisms and such). I did get some catechism and stuff like that, but it was like... "more school".

Later on, religion just never clicked. I was into mythology, so I always got stuck at "Why would THIS god be real and not all of those? They were there before."

[–] hdnclr@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Yes, kind of. However, I was raised Pentecostal and strictly conservative, and have lingering religious trauma that I'm working through. For a while (from my teens through my mid-twenties) I described myself as atheist. However, I got into witchcraft and the occult a few years ago as kind of a time-waster hobby, not really sincerely believing in it at first but just having fun with it, and that grew into learning about other religions and becoming genuinely curious about spirituality and religion. Now I'd describe myself as a Unitarian Universalist. I've still never been to a Unitarian Universalist church in-person because there's not one near me, but I attend online stuff occasionally and whole-heartedly love the way they do religion. And I feel welcomed there despite all of the things that would have gotten me dirty looks at any of the churches I grew up in. In terms of belief, I'd say I'm agnostic and I like to "put on" and "take off" beliefs (or "suspend disbelief"), which I got from doing chaos magic. I think magic and ritual helps me organize and make sense of my mind more than anything else... if anything, just having a meditation and journaling habit has helped my mental health, especially since i re-started those habits after starting my gender transition. And yeah, it also maybe helps with everything else gestures to the world at large...

And yeah, I just realized this is the most I've talked about my spirituality to anyone since going down this road. One of my big things is that my spirituality is a very personal thing and I keep it mostly to myself. Nothing against people who proselytize (I've come to understand and forgive people who sincerely believe they're saving my life by "ministering" to me, like some of my older relatives who genuinely care about me and who are probably happy to hear me say "yeah, I'm kind of getting into a church now") but I don't feel compelled to tell people about my shit because I definitely have no answers. That's my whole thing, I have no answers. I'm just kind of reading everything and trying everything, for no purpose other than to just understand people and myself a little better. And maybe it works for me, but I also know folks who definitely don't want or need religion and that is 1000% okay, and I hope I don't disturb them. So I only really speak of my stuff when people ask.

[–] Butterbee@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

I am, very much, not religious. My father is Catholic, my mother doesn't go into her spirituality but it's not Christian. So I was taught about different things and given the choice to believe in what makes sense to me. If there's one way to describe what feels to me like what I imagine faith to be like to someone who's religious it would be the messages of hope and of passion for discovery and learning that Carl Sagan showed. The Pale Blue Dot speech is a sermon. It inspires me to be a better person and to try and be the change in the world that I want to see. But ultimately science doesn't know everything and at some point even with it you must make assumptions and have "faith" in the process.

As far as divinity goes, I've always struggled to believe. I just don't see the extraordinary evidence that would be required for me to say "Oh, that makes a divinity-free universe impossible". And by the same token it is impossible to prove that the universe was not crafted by some all powerful being last Thursday with all our billions of years of history baked in for us to pour through. So I figure, I'll find out on my last day and until then I'll just focus on being as good a person as I can be.

[–] Witch@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not really.

I like witchy stuff but only if its considerable to placebos. A rose quartz bracelet, for example, might not be scientifically going to attract love and good fortune---but its cute and makes me happy, so who knows, THAT might help.

If I had to choose a religion though, I'd probably go with one of those polytheist religions because ever since I was a kid and first went to a church camp, I decided that a singular "God" scares the shit out of me. I basically considered "God" too overpowered and decided that wasn't for me.

[–] Cinereus@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yep! I grew up nominally christian but actually pretty personally areligious, even with a long atheist phase, but in a pretty diverse religious upbringing both family and community-wise - mostly a mix of Unitarian Univeralism, Catholicism, and Judaism. I had a lot of anger at religion as a queer teenager from the US south but thankfully ended up falling in with more positive ex-Christian interfaith groups and not the antitheist community, which led to a lot of open exploring down many different religious paths just to better understand and see what the fuss was all about, to where I am now, an animist polytheist with a pretty solitary practice. No pressure, just me and my own relationship with the world and the many kinds of persons, human and not, who inhabit it.

[–] shufflerofrocks@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (8 children)

Hell yeah! I'm Hindu and I love it.

I loved mythology as a child and devoured every myth from every culture I could get my hands on. Later this evolved into exploration of religion. I've read religious books of many religions - Hindu epics and scriptures, Buddhist scriptures, Jain scriptures, Quran, Bible, Guru Granth Sahib, and the Avesta - I enjoyed them all, and my parents encouraged this exploration.

I ultimately came back to Hinduism because a lot of the stuff in it made sense and resonated with me, and let me adopt a mindset that works well for letting me process and ascribe meaning to the various experiences and phenomenon of life.

Hinduism is a collection of hundreds of belief-systems - a lot of which are uber chill, some literally cult-like, some polticised and weaponised for oppression, and some that are intense but harmless. You can choose what makes sense to you - I personally follow a pretty chill belief system, but it also makes me seem not serious about it.

Oooh and it is fun in the community - festivals, temples, ceremonies, and various cultural events -there are so many of these, and each of them very fun depending on the people involved in the celebration.

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[–] liminalDeluge@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yes, I'm Christian. I am also queer and staunchly opposed to American bible fascism. An unfortunate number of people seem to believe that these traits can't coexist in one person without hypocrisy or denial.

Myself, I enjoy how my religious beliefs and my queer identity support and bolster one another. 😁

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

love to see queer christian’s here! so many people, especially LGBT folks (understandably to some degree) harbour so much hate for christianity as a whole, when in my opinion it’s crazy to generalize everyone in an entire religion as “bad people.”

may i ask what denomination you follow, if it’s a specific one?

[–] s_s@lemmy.one 4 points 2 years ago

I'm bisexual, but left the church after attending seminary.

So maybe I kinda count? heh.

[–] liminalDeluge@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago

I'm not part of a specific denomination atm, having come from a vaguely evangelical background*, and my childhood religious education was woefully lacking in explanation of the different denominations and schisms. I want to try attending a variety of affirming, universalist churches to broaden my experience and figure out where I belong. I've heard good things online about Episcopal churches but I've never attended one.

*My parents were a Catholic/Protestant couple and made some odd decisions, like explicitly telling me we were attending such and such church but we're not members of it, but then never really educating me in any other denomination's teachings.

[–] chicken@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago

me too! im catholic and lesbian (maybe nonbinary too??)

[–] wildeaboutoskar@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I am atheist but I do enjoy religious spaces. There's a stillness that I like, gives you the opportunity to just be in the moment. You don't get many spaces like that for atheist folk (libraries are the closest I can think of). I sing a lot of choral music so often find myself in churches. I like the structure of a service and the ceremonial aspect, I just don't believe in the content itself.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

definitely relate to this. i attend church regularly despite not being religious because my family is, and though i don’t believe in the christian god at least, i do appreciate and like the environment, community, and lessons being taught. it’s very peaceful and makes you feel like you’re part of something a bit bigger, even if that’s likely just because there’s a few hundred people at any given service.

[–] RaspberryRobot@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

No, I'm too gay lmao.

My "spirituality" is more just driven by my experiences with living, psychedelics, art, and science. Which is to say, I see myself as the atoms which comprise me, which will and actively are becoming other lifeforms (and viruses/prions) when my homeostasis is thrown off hard enough (cell death and the big death). I feel less like a "person" and more like a meat computer. Could be because I'm autistic and dissociate a lot from trauma/undiagnosed ADHD, but like, I do like the feeling of just "existing". I feel like one of countless experiences of the universe experiencing itself. I try to do what makes me happy, (art, gardening, video games, programming) which includes helping my community and surroundings to be healthy, happy, and free, as one person can manage to make it.

I can't always meet my own standards because I'm only one person. I still try to strive to do what I can.

Is anarchism a religion? Or is it faith in the inherent interconnectedness of nature? I think all creatures are better than we (human society) give them credit for. I don't feel anthropocentrism will get us anywhere. I believe we're more than the systems that control us (capitalist megamachine, fascism, racism, sexism, colonialism, ableism, speciesism, etc.). We, creatures of the earth, are no better or worse than anything or anyone else. And these specific bodies make us able to discuss and address inequality and injustice, and try to get as close to planetwide systemic homeostasis as possible. You are me are nature are gods are the universe. We'll meet again in a different context, as different creatures, as not quite the same set of atoms. But some of what comprises "us" (myself and anyone reading this) will be there, in the future, perhaps even in the same creature. I don't think there's an "afterlife" just a different ongoing thread of "life". I'm still terrified of dying of course, I'd like to keep this "system", this "body", alive as long as possible. But I'm a bit more ok with it than I used to be. And mourning my own death after being zooted out of my mind helped a bit.

TLDR "Ego death^TM^" to sound even more like a stereotypical stoner/psychedelics user lmao.

[–] Buddits@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

I grew up in a christian household. My larents even went to two seperat churches (one service on saturday, one of sunday). They were very uptight about what was acceptable and what was evil. For example pokemon, star wars, yu-gi-oh, dragonball and harry potter were all forbidden for me. In my teens i became an atheist and never went back. Even though i do not believe in anything super natural anymore, i came to enjoy talking about religion with people again eventually.

[–] elleyena_rose@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm spiritual and I guess some would say religious, though I just call it witchy. I was raised by strict parents as an evangelical Christian (Southern Baptist), but that made less and less sense as I grew older and learned more about the world around me.

I found my way to witchcraft, and working with and in nature made way more sense to me. I'm eclectic, and not very into ceremonial magic, but I do believe magic is real, and I believe we all have different paths to take in life. I currently worship Persephone, Hestia, and Loki, and I try to honor other deities where applicable. I'm studying everything I can, and love hearing about other people's experiences.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

love to see a witch in this thread! i was very interested in witchcraft back when i was deconverting from christianity, as a sort of way to wrestle control over my beliefs again, but honestly haven’t touched it much in awhile. i could never really get myself to believe in any of the pagan gods, even though i really wanted to, and still would like to if i could only bring myself to have faith and believe.

tarot is the best thing i’ve taken from that time, i love it as a tool to analyze emotions and thoughts i don’t fully understand, though i don’t use it much these days. i should try and start using it again :)

may i ask what’s driven you to worship those deities in particular? and, if you had to get over a “belief” hump like i’ve failed to, what pushed you to really believe in the old gods?

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[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I've found myself surrounded by a lot of spiritual people lately and I've used it as an excuse to try and get in touch with that side of myself. It's been a very interesting experience. There's a lot of it I still don't understand but a lot of it is just nice vibes? Like I don't ascribe any meaning to the moon or when I'm born or male and female sexual energies or being actually connected to the souls of anyone else but sometimes it's nice to recognize when things are just unexplainable by conventional means and to use a common language to recognize it. To speak in soft or uncertain terms as a way to acknowledge something you can't quite put your finger on, only to have it create a wonderful connecting conversation with another human is honestly kind of nice. And it makes approaching certain subjects a little bit more accessible because it's not rigorous and scientific but more human centered and amorphous.

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

i don’t have much to add, but just wanted to say i really like this comment. i think you captured my feelings towards spirituality as a non religious but curious person- there’s just soft nice feeling that can be hard to explain but definitely keeps me coming back to investigate more. being able to lighten up, and look at the world in a less rigorous, always science focused way is just nice.

[–] chicken@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (5 children)

was raised catholic, then kinda fell out at 14ish, now im more catholic than ive ever been

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[–] LootGoblin42@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Religions have been perverted into a system of manipulation and control of the masses. Granules of truth in each one keep people coming back, but in the end they are like a virus in human consciousness that is designed to control us. I really believe each person can only find real truth by turning inward and deeply exploring their own consciousness.

[–] lwaxana_katana@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I disagree with this. Definitely there are many examples of organised religion being perfect case studies of the adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But there are also many ways that religious communities support each other and their wider communities, outside just providing a doctrinal "granule of truth".

Sikhism I think is most famous for this, and I feel like at least where I live whenever something bad happens in the background on the news I see Sikh communities mobilising to render assistance.

Similarly, the denomination I was brought up in (church of christ) has always been oriented, both in theory and practice, around doing community work first and debating doctrine a fairly distant second (also, each church of christ congregation is an independent entity, which I think has probably contributed to it being able to maintain its strong community-first focus over time).

[–] thumbtack@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago

thank you for pointing this out. i understand why some people tend to blanket religion as unrational, cold, hateful, and/or controlling, but it’s really unfair to generalize such a diverse group like that. there’s a lot of religions, boiling them all down to whatever awful thing you hear in the news about one specific religion is pretty bad imo.

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