this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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Israeli airstrikes destroyed a tower block in Gaza City after Hamas militants launched a rocket and air attack on Israel in the early hours of Saturday morning.

The Israeli army launched Operation Iron Swords against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, with Israel's president, Benjamin Netanyahu, saying the country, is 'at war'.

Al Jazeera journalist Youmna El Sayed was reporting live from Gaza the moment the missile struck Palestine Tower behind her.

Sources in Gaza said at least 198 Palestinians were killed in the strikes

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[–] MeanEYE@lemmy.world 70 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So order of things in this video is wrong. First one is the reporter with explosion behind her. Explosion is suppose to make noise and do no damage. Israel calls this "roof knocking" as it gives warning and time for people to flee. Fifteen minutes later first part of the video happens and building is leveled to the ground. Building destroyed is a communication tower, which as you can expect is the first to go in such situations.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Are you sure it's a communication tower? If they flattened "Palestine Tower", then that's a mix of commercial and residential apartments. Apparently it had 14 stories and also housed clinics and media agencies.

(Wiki page is in Arabic)

[–] turbonewbe@lemm.ee 10 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Please explain like I'm 5 : why Israël doesn't go after military/strategic targets instead of destroying city blocks?

[–] Nihilistra@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Because this was probably a military target.

A lot of militant groups use civilians as human shields to either completly prevent a strike or a least create bad publicity to spin their propaganda.

There were a lot of Israelis taken into Gaza by force, my guess is they are kept in the most important places to create a moral dilemma.

You either attack and kill your own civilians or let the enemy have undisturbed action.

[–] smooth_tea@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago

Israel and the Occupied Territories: Shielded from scrutiny: IDF violations ... https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/mde151432002en.pdf

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

I just thought I'd add this to counter the usual one sided view on the matter.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

A lot of militant groups use civilians as human shields to either completly prevent a strike or a least create bad publicity to spin their propaganda.

I honestly don't know why they do that because Israel clearly doesn't care and will shoot a child or journalist or doctor any day of any hour.

[–] AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Gaza doesn't have anything else. It is not a country, it is a concentration camp and it in general is not permitted to have anything resembling an organized self defense.

It makes it easier to bulldoze over their towns on Ramadan and then act shocked when some of them retaliate during your high holiday.

Israel could simply stop settling the land that doesn't belong to them and exterminating Palestinians, and Hamas could stop lashing out and killing Israelis but the only way that happens is if the political leadership of those two selfishly monstrous regimes were to simply all die.

There can be no peace as long as one country is allowed to make another into an apartheid state while they ethnically cleanse the population from land they feel entitled to control.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Or maybe Israel could use all that money they have to remove the separation walls and allow Palestinians to integrate into society and return lands that settlers recently took. That's a start.

[–] Custodian1623@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

Hamas doesn't want to be part of Israeli society. These are not two groups that can co-exist peacefully.

[–] magikmw@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

City blocks are military targets when your goal is to get rid of people living there.

[–] WhyDoesntThisThingWork@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The correct answer is that Hamas purposely launches these attacks from city block, schools, hospitals, etc which is literally a war crime so when there is retaliation they can cry foul. Don't believe terrorist apologist.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Have you ever looked at a map of Gaza, the place is all civilian infrastructure, they have to operate from inside it there's no other choice the place is completely overpopulated. Which very much makes it not a war crime as the Geneva convention is about avoiding avoidable civilian casualties, not unavoidable ones.

[–] Custodian1623@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Shooting rockets indiscriminately is definitely an avoidable action. They don't have to do it. Unfortunately people do need to defend themselves from Israel but the rockets are just to inflict suffering.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Palestine has all the right in the world to combat an occupying force. What are you going to say next "Ukraine doesn't have to shoot rockets at Russians"?

Then Gaza, in particular, has the right to defend itself against a blockade threatening the wealth, health, and indeed survival of its people. Don't want poor people to fight dirty? Don't oppress them, it's that simple. If Israel ever goes around stopping to do that (probably will require re-animating Rabin) they get the right to complain, but not before.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Let me know when Ukraine bombs civilian hospitals inside Russia or massacres Russian civilians at a music festival.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Let me know when Gaza has surgical strike capability. With the type of rockets they're using you can't really target hospitals because you can't really target them at all, they're ludicrously imprecise. Little better than a potato cannon.

People fight with what they have. The more desperate, the dirtier. It is way too easy to sit in your chair in front of your computer, presumably with a fully stocked fridge, reliable water, sewage, and electricity, technical marvels just a mouse click and next-day delivery away, and make moral judgements about people fighting for sheer survival with little more than sticks and stones.

Do I condone it? Nah. Both sides are invariably assholes, and not everything Hamas does is goal-directed enough to be categorised as "dirty war". There's lots of plain hatred in there. But then that hatred isn't exactly unfounded.

And at that point we're getting to a "If you deny me things, then I will deny you things" territory. The mutual assured destruction instinct: "Sure I may lose but I'll make sure that you lose, too". Eye for an eye. That, yes, means simply inflicting suffering. We're past morals at this point, this is human instinct, or one branch of the genome telling the other "yo, cut it out". It's bigger and way more natural -- in the metal sense -- than the quaint and lofty systems we build in our heads.

...which brings me to why I even replied to your comment: We wouldn't be in that situation, we could make moral judgements we'd actually feel good about, if Israel wasn't tightening thumbscrews to mush levels just to inflict suffering, like the whole water situation in Gaza. And there's no, absolutely no justification for that, as Israelis very much are not struggling for survival themselves.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

We’re past morals at this point, this is human instinct, or one branch of the genome telling the other “yo, cut it out”. It’s bigger and way more natural – in the metal sense – than the quaint and lofty systems we build in our heads.

So... terrorism.

No. That's inexcusable.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

We would not be the social beings that we are without that underlying threat level. Our whole capacity to emphasise and be kind hinges on being able to tell when we crossed a line with others, and for that people have to have lines that can be crossed.

What's inexcusable is not the instinct, we all have it, but pushing people to a point where it breaks through. Be that to get rid of them, or to galvanise the in-group, as fascists do.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

being able to tell when we crossed a line with others

You mean like Hamas does with their murder, rape, and parading or civilian corpses?

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Like Israel is doing by depriving Gaza of the necessities for life even though they themselves have plenty?

One side is actually doing it out of material desperation, the other out of political convenience, is all I'm saying.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Like Israel is doing by depriving Gaza of the necessities for life even though they themselves have plenty?

My dislike of the policies of Israel's government is not relevant. Israeli citizens are not currently massacring Palestinians and parading their bodies through the streets.

This is not equal, this terrorism does not help Palestine, and excusing it is disgusting.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

this terrorism does not help Palestine

I never said it did.

and excusing it is disgusting.

I'm not excusing I'm explaining.

This is not equal,

Indeed. As said: On the one side a cat in a corner, on the other someone pinning it down. Who is at fault when claws go flying?

[–] SCB@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Animals are not human. Human beings have agency. These people chose to be terrorists. There is no excuse, and the victims of their terrorism are not to blame.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

Humans are animals, push any of us far enough and you'll see. As said: It's easy to moralise from your desk.

...also, who are you talking about? Cutting off an area's water supply counts as terrorism in my book. Please clarify.

[–] Custodian1623@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The Hamas charter literally states that their goals are only attainable through jihad. The motivation is not "material desperation" but Israel's destruction. Israel's actions have helped radicalize people toward Hamas but Hamas goals are expressly not self defense.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hamas is literally fascist, yes. But then you also have to ask why they have an easy time recruiting fighters instead of being a handful of hateful creeps in a nondescript shisha bar. Without all that energy created from desperation, Hamas would have precious little to work with. Heck without Fatah corruption they wouldn't have anything to work with.

[–] Custodian1623@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The actions of the IDF and the state don't justify mass murder of civilians. All that accomplishes is poking the bear. Israel is oppressive against the people of Palestine but by no means do two wrongs make a right.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

I'm not justifying. I'm explaining. And the explanation is that Israel drives Palestinians to desperation and instincts break through. A cornered cat won't care whether it's a bear cornering her she's going to scratch that fucker no matter what.

Also history has shown that not poking that particular bear doesn't make it any friendlier. Frankly speaking at this point the only thing that could get us out of the conundrum, I think, is an Israeli civil war, with the settlers on the losing side.

[–] WuTang@lemmy.ninja 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

YouTube is actually displaying pro-isreali ads displaying colonized people as terrorists. Without discomfort.

David against Goliath they said at the IDF center behind their joysticks.

We are really in up is down era.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

When you shoot up a music festival then parade the bodies of the civilians you murdered through the streets, you are, in fact, a terrorist.

[–] WuTang@lemmy.ninja 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

palestinian == local isralian == colonist

You could bend the reality as much as you can - and pay all the ad campaign on youtube - but by definition, the offenser is pretty well identified.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Yep it is. It's the person murdering and kidnapping civilians, whichever "side" theyre on.

[–] Clown_Tempura@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Turns out people are comfortable with genocide when it's brown people doing the dying.

[–] HerzogVonWiesel@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Palestine strikes Israel: 22 dead (huge outcry) Israel strikes Palestine: 200 dead (nobody bats an eye)

Israel is a problematic subject with how imbalanced it is handled in media, resembling more propaganda than anything else.

[–] ahornsirup@sopuli.xyz 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

So you think Israel should just accept that a genocidal terrorist organisation attacks its civilian population? Yes, Hamas uses civilians as meat shields but what are the Israelis supposed to do? Let themselves be slaughtered?

Jesus fucking Christ. Terrorist supporters all around here. I'm genuinely disgusted.

[–] fishos@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is the same Israel with their elite mossad forces, yes? "Meat shields" are a poor excuse for indiscriminately bombing a city block when you have elite spec ops units. They don't do it because they have no other choice, they do it as a threatening show of force. "Fuck with us and we'll kill anyone even near you".

There's a middle ground that doesn't involve slaughtering innocents.

[–] Huntersli@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Any chance you can school me in the rights and wrongs of this situation, I have tried to read up on the situation between Israel and Palestine and I just can't work out who, if anyone is at fault. It just seems like a crazy unresolvable mess.

On the face of it I would just think the solution is to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it, why is it not that simple?

Also it's really hard to understand who is justified in their actions. I often find myself feeling sorry for the Palestinians but then I see them riding through London celebration the murder of innocent people and it makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them. Similarly with Israelis, it's horrible that they have innocent civilians murdered but killing 250 in response is just crazy...

I'm not trolling or shit posting I honestly can't work it out.

[–] fishos@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago

I appreciate your thoughtful response. Unfortunately it is an incredibly murky mess at this point. Say you side with Palestine and say it's their land. Do you then kick out the people who were born on the land after the conflict started? Innocent people who's only crime is the location of their birth? Or do you side with Israel and claim it's their land now and do the same to Palestinians? Where do you put the people you relocate?

I won't pretend to have an answer to that. Just pointing out that either answer has numerous problems which is part of why no solution has been reached yet. Few, if any, solution will be a "win-win". Someone will have to concede, and neither side seems willing to right now.

That said, indiscriminate violence from either side is abhorible. I detest the death of any innocent civilian in all of this. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that. Both sides have committed crimes and those responsible should all be held accountable for turning the area into a warzone.

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