NFL

I think anyone who is fair will say that Bill Belichick the GM is just outright not any good. The coach is still awesome. Divorcing the two will not happen as long as he is with the Patriots and so BB the GM will continue on making BB the coach's legacy look worse and worse. It would also help if people hired from New England were actually good effective coaches, and if you hadnt had multiple clown situations that resulted from hiring BB assistants to be HCs.

Supposedly Bill, is coming off a potential one night stand, getting caught stumbling out the next morning on a ring camera.

Ol boy is BACK. Bill got that dawg back in him.

HC B.B. - top tier, Mt. Rushmore of all-time coaches.

GM B.B. - extremely poor at his job and actively hurting Head Coach B.B.

Him being the GM, to me, is the problem and not his coaching

Hey OP what is the average Offensive Points Per Drive for Belichick teams with Brady vs without? Also it's funny you mentioned his rings as a defensive coordinator when he had Lawrence Taylor but not his absolutely abysmal defenses when he was the de facto defensive coordinator for the Patriots in 2010 and 2011

Bill is still a good overall coach, and a great defensive mind. He just isn’t a good offensive coach for this age of football and his GM skills no longer match what helps teams win offensively. If he’d be willing to let an actual GM and a true modern OC come in, he’d still be fine.

Patriot fans: they are who we thought they were

All this hate is undeserved for sure. I think once his time here is over people are gonna cry and sing him all the praise he deserves.

Also, Brady has historically had very good field position to start a drive. I think that there was a stat somewhere that Brady has never had a touchdown drive that was 75 yards or more in the super bowl or something like that

“Brady made him”. You can use whatever stat you want here, but let’s use the most basic one. Points allowed per game. Of course there are influences here. Time of possession, special teams, ability to generate turnovers. But at its most basic level this is what determines the result of a game.

OP, do you understand why using a metric like “points allowed” (or even points per drive) when ranking defenses can be very very flawed when your QB is Tom Brady versus an average QB or say… Jameis Winston.

Not only FLAWED, but it can actually produce opposite of the correct results.

For example, by using this metric, the 2017 Patriots are in fact the BEST defense in the NFL (#1 in points allowed). But when we use a more sophisticated metric like DVOA, we see that this a in fact a terrible defense (30th in DVOA, worst defense to ever make the Super Bowl).

I mean, do you really believe the 2017 Patriots are the best defense in the NFL?

I would love a stat on how much of cap % pats used on defence across the years. Its easier to have elite defence when you only pay one person on the other side

I think all you've got to do to short-circuit at least some of this BS is admit that Lawrence Taylor respected this man's football knowledge a decade before he was even in his FIRST head coaching gig.

Idk I‘m missing something but as far as I know Tom never played a game where the opposing team scored more than 43+ points. That’s still a lot but considering that he played for more than 20 years that’s absolutely crazy

Best ever defensive coach. Nowhere near the best head coach without the GOAT QB.

To be fair the patriots have had problems for longer than this year, the record is just really bad this season.

Hiring all of his buddies into coordinator positions when they sucked, like Patricia at OC, and years of sub par drafting have put them in this position. It’s not just isolated to this season.

He’s been trending down for awhile.

Andy Reid can actually compete on a consistent basis without a generational QB

All the belichek hate you see now is absurd. And honestly it’s for entertainment to stir up drama and ratings. Belichek doesn’t “need” Brady. What he needs is what all coaches need. A very very very very good quarterback. And what every quarterback needs to win Super Bowl. Avery good coach, offensive line, and defense. The patriots were put together from top to bottom almost perfectly for 20 years. During the patriot dynasty. If beleichik had. Manning, rivers, Rodgers, Big Ben. Brees. Msybe a few others. They would have been the best dynasty of all time. 6 super bowls. Msybe. Maybe not. But they would have been great. When you look at all the super bowls they won, they could have swapped qbs, and the patriots would have most likely won.

If Warner played on NE. Probably If delhome played on NE. Maybe If Mcnabb played on NE. Maybe If Matt Ryan played on NE. Probably Goff. Maybe. Russel Wilson. Probably If you swapped manning and Brady in those afc championships. I’d take the patriots. Big Ben lost to Brady twice in afc championships. Those might have been switched.

All in all. The patriots dynasty, the stars and planets aligned for 2 decades straight. If Brady went somewhere else would he have 7? Doubtful. People tend to forget how great those early patriots defenses were. It’s not some black and white topic. They are a team who had great and the right players at all positions, and coaches who drew up plays and schemes that made them the best

Seriously. We're talking about a team that hasn't had a top ten draft pick since 2008. Didn't have a first round pick at all for a lot of those years. That's not just Brady. That's a coach that can get the best out of his players on the field and on the market.

Bill Belichick is an excellent coach. He also had a hall of fame quarterback for 20 years, and combined, they won 6 super bowls. What Belichick is not good at is draft scouting/talent evaluation. Belichick has always been known for reclamation projects of highly touted veterans, and it helps when your QB can make any combination of receivers work (see: Troy Brown, David Patten, Deion Branch, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, Donte' Stallworth, Jabar Gaffney, Brandon Tate, Brandon Lloyd, Danny Amendola, Aaron Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Brandon LaFell, Chris Hogan, Phillip Dorsett). Bill Belichick has not hit on draft picks, especially as of late, and now that Brady is gone, it doesn't matter what he does schematically since his team is literally just less talented.

The whole "should brady or belichick get more credit for the pats dynasty?" discussion is fucking stupid. If you ask me they are both the GOATs at their respective roles and what we got from that was an unprecedented run of success that lasted for twenty fucking years and will never be replicated. Conversation over.

Try 3 subpar-to-poor seasons in 4 years.

Watched some mini-documentary about BB and Brady from the beginning of Brady career and its clear to me that without BB there would not be Brady. Both has a piece of the dynasty puzzle and IMO it doesn't matter who had the "bigger" piece.

Brady is the GOAT and BB is GOAT HC.

Mostly every very good /great QB that won a superbowl in the last 20 years did so with a very good or opportunistic defense:

• Big Ben: mid-00s Steelers D, need we say anything more

• Peyton: Bob sanders fully healthy year and the best the colts defense ever was. 2015 broncos

• Brees: 09 saints led the league in turnovers, had a clutch int of manning in the SB.

• Rodgers: Charles Woodson playing at DPOY level

• Eli: giants d-line goes super saiyan.

• Mahomes: Chiefs defense got better in 2019 than it was in 2018. Last years chiefs defense was no slouch either.

Look brady is great but he’s not 5 super bowls better than Peyton or 6 super bowls better than Brees/Rodgers. Let’s not forget Tampas Defense had a huge role in ring #7 too

Of the years the pats made the Super Bowl, 2011 and 2017 were really the only times they had a bad defense and they lost both times.

Belichik didn’t win any super bowls with Cleveland, it’s like everyone forgets he coached there first, a under .500 record. Without Brady he doesn’t have the success that he had. Also belichik deserves criticism for the roster because he hasn’t been drafting well recently. Other than randy moss name 1 legitimate WR 1 the patriots had

Nobody is arguing that Tom Brady didn’t consistently have solid defenses. However, it’s a team game and Belichick has a great defensive mind. Nonetheless, it cannot be ignored that Belichick is a loser without the goat as his quarterback. I’ll take Andy Reid over him personally. Succeeded with or without Mahomes.

The only way Billy B stops being a HC is if he decides to retire.

It’s not one poor season. It’s been several.

With that said BB isn’t getting fired. It would be idiotic.

I use Tom’s greatness to tear down belichick. I use Belichick’s greatness to tear down Tom.

I don't see people criticizing Bill the coach. They're criticizing Bill, the GM. And rightfully so. He's not a good GM. He could get away with poor GM decisions when he had Brady. Now, he can't. He is, perhaps, the best defensive coach of all time and one of the best football minds of all time. He is perhaps even the best coach of all time. But his mediocre to poor GM abilities are becoming too big of a problem now without an elite QB on a below-market value deal like he had for so long with Brady.

Well said. Not just defense, but team building, coaching and staffing. For 20 years. And he's still crushing it on defense, even against "modern" offenses. But it's hard when his qb's turnovers are now costing him multiple wins and this wave of nonsense takes over.

Has gone**

Bill with any of the HOF QBs from that era has a similar career. Brady with any of the coaches those QBs had, has a similar career as them. With the caveat that Brady took a long time to become elite and I'm not sure another coach would have had the patience.

Combined, they did things neither could do alone, or with anyone else. But given Bill's defensive prowess he could generate the same level of success in a wider variety of situations. Mostly because the number of coaches that can consistently field a top10 defense over a 2 decade period is basically a class of 1.

Cares.

Belichick without Brady:

81-95 Record (45-51 w/ NE)

43-45 at Home (23-25 w/ NE)

57-76 w/ 1st Round Picks at QB (30-43 w/ NE)

69-82 w/ Pro Bowl QBs (40-48 w/ NE)

0 Division Titles

2 Playoff Appearances

1-2 Playoff Record (0-1 w/ NE)

There’s no way Brady has his early success of 3 SBs without the benefit of the Pats’ system, including Belichick’s world class defenses. Anyone who thinks the Pats win that first SB against the Greatest Show On Turf Rams without Belichick’s defense is in serious denial. Now, AFTER Brady had been there for a decade and the Pats re-energized and won 3 more, Brady was obviously a much more complete QB who could do it all. So, while Belichick’s system made Brady, Brady returned the favor being the most clutch and complete QB in history. They had a part in making each other, but I think Brady needed Belichick first.

I am a Bill hater at this point and none of us ever doubted Bill's defensive skills, they are elite and he's proved it. He's hated for being one of the worst GMs in football and having 0 clue how to build a modern offense without the greatest player ever at the most important position, its that simple.

Welcome to the internet OP. All we know how to do is overreact.

I saw a stat a couple years ago. Every single “great” head coach in the modern era had a losing record without their franchise QB. Except Tony Dungy, he had a .55 winning percentage without Peyton Manning.

The NFL is a QB league

A lot of it seems to be backlash from years and years of calling Brady a system QB and attributing all success to a magical system that never really existed. Reality has always been that the best QB ever was paired with the best coach ever and we got what we got. I believe players deserve the brunt of the credit (and the blame), specially QBs, but to pretend that Bill was some bum that got carried is crazy, and, as I said, likely the byproduct of so many people who were wrong about Tom for 20 years being unable to admit it and pivoting to discrediting Bill.