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BB was IMO an undisputed great DC. But as a HC, I can't get past the fact that with Brady, he has a stellar record, but without Brady, he is a mediocre, losing HC. He was nothing as an HC before Brady, and nothing after, and we have reams and reams of before and after data on it.
So ... maybe the best DC ever, but not as an HC.
I mean he is a cheater who has turned to shit without Brady.
Pretty sure the criticism recently has been him as a Head Coach making personnel decisions, not as a pure defensive mind, which he's still great at. This is some next level strawman.
He’s going to need to have more success post Brady as HC to shake the narrative.
Hell KD has had way more success than Belichick did after leaving the warriors, but still gets dogged as needing Steph to win.
This season has been EXTREMELY injury hit as well. I keep saying it but IMO, it would just be short-sighted to completely bail on him when the last three years have been solid and he has a very long track record of success. In my mind, Mike Tomlin is the same: If Tomlin's team just cratered next year, I'd give him the next QB after Kenny Pickett rather than can him instantly.
Dude this guy is insane and his owners had him draft a joke southern college white boy qb who sucks. All of a sudden he needs fired coming in on the all time record of wins???? Bro I hate this motherfucker for legit reasons, not just because he wears patriots logos. Don’t disrespect me like that
People think in extremes without even realising they're doing it. Shows like First take, how quick the media moves, it's beyond mental and it can't be stopped
There's no denying Belichick is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL, time has proven that. Even before Brady entered the league Belichick was a tough defense to beat.
However it is notable to have the GOAT quarterback on the other side of the ball for 20+ years, highly influencing his strategy.
To have a QB with the ability to go toe to toe with the best defenses way more often than not and have the team in a winning position or comeback position is defending your position to win.
It's just now trying to fill that vacuum left on offense that was once a significant piece to the defensive strategy for 20+ years is difficult to replace.
Okay, it’s a bit crazy to see people in this thread go from Bill is the goat and Brady was lucky as well.
Both were the best at leading their team to the Super Bowl. Bill helped build a culture and defenses that could perform when it mattered and Brady helped the offense and performed in clutch moments as well.
People saying Brady was just a game manager, forget that after his first season he was top6 for yards and first in TDs his second year starting. He was close to top 6, definitely top 10 the next two years after that before he finally exploded as he was given more control of the offense.
As for Bill, he destroyed dreams with the giants defence and the patriot’s defence those early years. Then he had a renaissance in the later years as his defence found its groove against the rams (one of the most dominating performances I’ve seen from a Super Bowl defence).
They are both probably the goats for coach and player for now.
Arguably, the defences he’s still producing (2022, 2021, 2020) have kept the Patriots from rebuilding properly.
No they haven't. This is the NFL not the NBA lottery. Draft picks through the 4th round can all have a ton of value and net you really good players no matter where you pick. Every year there are dozens of guys that ball out that weren't anywhere close to being picked top 32.
Lets also not forget the extent to which BB whiffed on a lot of FA moves as well. If anything the strength of our defense should be HELPING our rebuild, not hurting it.
Did he make Bill the greatest defensive mind in history, no!
Bill can be the greatest defensive mind in history and also have been somewhat "made" by Brady. Being a HC is more than just scheme, especially more than just scheme on one side of the ball. People still need to buy in to your system, you still need to bring in the right people around you to run the team.
Bill did that for 20 years, but lets not act like Brady and others (like ernie adams and dante scarnecia) didn't help him immensely.
It's a simple fact that he is a losing HC without Brady. He's had like 4 years to build something without Brady and its looked like the same shit every year. Even going back to 2019 when Gronk retired and Brady clearly started regressing from his old self.
The Patriots just aren't special without Brady. They aren't feared. The Patriots of the last 5 seasons have felt more like the 90s Browns than the greatest dynasty in the history of football. That should be telling considering who was the primary person behind both.
Browns 1991-1995 - bad
Patriots before Tom - okay
Patriots with Tom - Great
Patriots after Tom - Bad
BB is a great coach but I don't think it is completely unjustified to question his methods and call him some infallible GOAT. Andy Reid has arguably had more diversified success across multiple teams, GMs, QBs etc. Having Tom was obviously a huge boon to Bill.
I'm not saying Andy is better than Bill but he has certainly proved success under a variety of situations. I think people are allowed to call these discrepancies out, it isn't revisionist history, Bill's record without Tom Brady is poor, and that's a decent sample size at this point.
Bill's an all time great coach. However, he's sucked as gm. He's too full of himself to do both jobs and has hindered the team by trying his in the cheap when they had cap space.
Listen to jets , dolphins and bills fans, he’s the best there ever has been. Jets fans still post the 2010 playoff win almost daily in our sub
Honestly, the level of hate has become ridiculous.
He’s the GOAT coach. He and pats nation still live rent free in the heads of so many jealous people. Get over it. I’ve had enough of all the naysayers, concern trolls and overall assholes saying shit about BB.
Bill rules
Brady won. Bill has struggled heavily without him.That's all the revision you need.
Problem is the guy contributes nothing to the offense.
Actually it hasn't gone far enough. Bill needs to retire. It was Brady all along. The last 4 years proved that to everybody except people living in denial.
has gone too far
Did any of you go to college?
It turns out when you have the GOAT at QB, you can focus your draft picks on the defensive side of the ball. I think Brady deserves some credit for giving Belicheck the ability to focus defense.
I wonder how many first round picks went to improving the offense for the Patriots. Seems like the Patriots did the same thing Green Bay did with Rodgers: stack the defense and hope that their elite QB can improve the guys around them on offense.
And this is why I consider Bill to be the best defensive coordinator in history but not in the top 3 HCs of all time. Also why I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to claim someone other than Brady is the qb goat. This isn't basketball, football is a complimentary and complex sport that renders objective conversations about who the best ever are nearly useless.
Belichick was a fucking dumbass when he was the Browns' HC. He'd be down by a field goal against the Steelers and call a hail mary on third and 2.
Patriots never had good defenses. Certainly never won games or even Super Bowls with low scoring offensive output. They never flipped through numerous OL and receivers . Nope, it was all Brady.
Everyone was talking about pats being a sneaky good team until judon and Gonzalez got hurt. Ever since then everyone says pats suck. We lost our best player. And arguably our 3rd best player the same week. Is Jones the best? He'll no. But we had a sick defense until judon was injured.
Lol the goalposts have been moved too far to defend BB. I'm pretty sure we can find threads that claimed he could win with scrubs because he is such a genius
Bill the GM is the reason this team stinks. Bill the coach, still great at his job!
Yeah thank you - the "bill can't win without Brady" bullshit flying around is insanely disrespectful.
Bill also is historically great against first time QBs, performed well with jimmy garoppolo, Brian hoyer, Jacoby brissett, and especially Matt Cassel. Brock purdy only started like eight or so games last year? Anyone related to football went nuts about it. Matt Cassel started almost every game that season and, because the pats had three rings already and were just coming off the 18-1 season. Everyone was impressed, but took it in stride - genius bill b does it again.
Brady is undeniably a transcendent star, but bill made him who he is and made sure that his teams were too tier in the other phases besides offense, if you can even chalk all that up to tom.
And...let's not act like that bucs team didn't have a great defense, too.