Mshuser

It’s becomes creepy/scary when the guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or becomes aggressive when you say no.

Most women won't be saying no and for good reason. They will just try to excuse themselves out of the interaction, or give out a fake number to temporarily satisfy him until they get away from the situation or anything along those lines. Very rarely they'll say no because dudes will then overreact to being rejected and sometimes act violent (no doubt this comes from the ideas implanted in their heads by TRP/PUA). Many guys, when women exit the convo without actually saying 'no', end up confused what happened in those interactions. They don't know if they should've asked for a number or not, or if doing so would make women feel uncomfortable as maybe she thought it was just a harmless conversation as they're trying to be careful not to make anything sound sexual at the beginning. But the guys who do, they already reached a point where they don't care about what she thinks.

Also, why couldn't you start a conversation with a guy you find attractive in those exact same situations?

Also, the whole know your audience thing comes into play too. If I’m in a bar, or waiting in line, or idk any number of other things it’s one thing. But if I’m clearly in a hurry, or in the middle of doing something like loading my car full of groceries. Not now. Seriously.

This one I agree with but you can still feel unsafe in a bar or waiting in line if you don't particularly want to talk to a guy. Obviously if you're in a hurry and have your hands full with heavy bags then that's a no. It still doesn't change my point though.

One of the biggest reasons “men are scary” is that I KNOW how much stronger a man is, than I am. I’d put up a hell of a fight, if it ever came down to it, but I won’t win on power or speed (and I’m a runner). Then add in the experiences we all have, with creepy dudes, at best, and downright belonging in jail dudes at worst.

Then what's the point of having courtship rules if it means being in a situation with a man that's much stronger than you if he decides to become aggressive at some point? Couldn't you make the first move while having escape options? I know women plan escape routes before going on dates with men, could you not do the same here? For dudes that belong in jail, most men are not gonna be like this. The experiences you have with creepy men I guarantee comes with their facing these exact expectations I was talking about earlier. I genuinely don't think most men would feel the need to do this if we actively told society not to make them conform to those expectations.

What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.

How do you think they became creepy? I don't think that comes out of nowhere. Or do you think it's just innate that we're creepy at some point?

Even that interaction you had with that man was very frightening I understand that. It still doesn't take away from the original point I made. I'm also sure he also faces these expectations many men face even in today's society. It doesn't excuse what he did though.

The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.

Where in my post did I even imply we don't see women as people?

A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.

You wanna talk about being treated as a human being but you won't reciprocate the same. How do you think these men feel at the thought of going up to someone they find attractive and talk to them? If you understand how nerve-wracking it is for men then you wouldn't be expecting them to make the first move that easily. They don't need to approach a woman, that doesn't mean they don't have sexual needs they need to fulfill, women too. Men would feel desired if women also make the first move and do it very obviously.

Also, let's not kid ourselves here. If you're attracted to men in general, there are men out there that you do find attractive. That's reason enough for you to approach him.

Many women I've spoken to expect men to make the first move, and many men tried giving shy men tips on how to make the first move and let her see him as "the man" (a language I hate so much). When I suggest they go up to him and tell him they like him, they prefer to send signals and hope he picks them up instead.

Overall, I can tell from this comment you didn't read a single word I've written on my post. Nowhere did I suggest men should treat women as goalposts, in fact, I didn't even give any dating advice here at all.

Expecting men to initiate isn't ideal, but it's not the primary expectation that's hurting men.

I'd say it is. I'd say it's the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable. If 90% of women aren't gonna make the first move on you (cuz they themselves expect men to make the first move including feminists), then to have consistent success, you need to ramp up your efforts a lot higher or nothing will happen. You're downplaying the scale & importance this factor has on men.

I don't think a discussion of what "society" expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.

I agree with this statement, but it still doesn't change my explanation of why it doesn't match up to today's reality. Today's media is not like how you described it to be because the culture we live today isn't teaching men to pursue a woman after she's rejected him hoping she'll change her mind. That trope was played out in 80s media, not today's media.

Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to "pitch" you on different views - ultimately it's up to us to decide what we believe.

These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I'd say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just "decide what you believe"?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can't just leave it in the air like that.)

Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that's the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.

I don't think you're being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to "that's the social contract right now". And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they're just choosing not to approach as it's more convenient for them that way.

Approaching someone you're interested in is nerve-wracking, of course they don't wanna put themselves through that. Many anti-feminists claimed, "feminists want the benefits of being equal to men but don't want the responsibilities that come with it." This is how you're coming across rn with your replies.

so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable.

I agree with this sentiment, but it still won't make them feel less comfortable when we do approach. We can be as polite and respectful as possible, but many women assume men just want sex from them or assume they might do something worse. And this isn't a few women, this is a lot of them. They already have a fear of every strange man she comes across like you've said, so it's not just our efforts, it's by sheer numbers of finding someone who'd at least give us a shot. A lot of single men are checking out of dating for this reason and are hoping luck will bring them a gf. The guys who won't check out of dating are the assholes who couldn't care less about women's safety.

"Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want."

I can tell you from experience that line you just came up here will make her even more uncomfortable guaranteed. When approaching a woman, your primary goal is to make her feel as relaxed when she's around you so she can engage comfortably. Your example statement brings back horrible memories of yelling, and women often do base their decisions on how they feel in the moment when interacting with a guy. She'll wanna get away from you faster when you frame it like that.

All in all, this feels like we're going in circles with this. I'm now at a point of stopping this discussion with you weather you reply or not.

The guys who feel entitled are "black pilled", not "red pilled." I don't identify with any of the pills.

Both pills can feel entitled to sex. Hell you can be no pill and feel entitled to sex. Entitlement comes when you feel like women or men should give you sex for multiple reasons. For the redpiller, it means being the alpha. For the black piller, that means being chad. For the average joe, that means being a 'nice guy'. But all examples of guys with different background who'd feel entitled to sex.

There are different beliefs within the "red-pill". Sometimes the "red-pill" is confused with the "black-pill", which is more extreme.

The blackpill is more concerned about looks having a huge role in dating. This isn't what I meant when I made that statement. To elaborate, a man weather redpill or blackpill wouldn't have a problem approaching a woman, getting rejected, and then moving on a few times right. The reason why I stated 1000 approaches cuz that's equivalent to 1000 times of being told they're not valuable or desirable cuz "If she rejects you, then she doesn't see you as high value". Many members of the black pill community tie most of their success back to baseline looks, whereas redpill believes that you can get results through self-improvement and game. But it wouldn't matter what pill you fall into, as long as the ideology you're being fed ties your value to being chosen, what I've said would be more likely to happen. I've studied a lot about dating including redpill and blackpill, so I'm very aware of what each ideology stands for and their beliefs.

I would classify what you're saying here as "black-pill", not "red-pill." The men who get angry have entitlement issues, maybe they're narcissists. Those guys feel entitled to sex before even talking to women.

Anger doesn't always have to be entitlement issues. It may be due to their frustration over their lack of success after having gone through that many rejections. And the examples responses I gave are natural defense when facing the thought of "she doesn't think you're valuable" so maybe they're saying those things as if to prove her wrong and make her out to be the arrogant one. Maybe on a normal day they wouldn't feel entitled to have sex when they get rejected, but there's always a buildup of such events where having your self-worth tied to success can only allow you to gracefully take that many rejections. I know cuz when I held these beliefs, I battled with those exact internal dialogues before.

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.

Hold up. Why don't you see the first one as one of the problems?

The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

We're not talking about media tho. The examples you're talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today's media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.

Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider "good" is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change.

I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn't share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn't work because it works with society's 'toxic worldview' (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it's rising.

Society says that "you don't need to conform yourself to gender roles" and by actions they show women don't need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There's an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that "women can also make the first move" but let's be real here. Over 90% of women don't make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried 'hitting on' don't like them. They'd have to go up to a guy and say "Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you" just for them to get the message.

That's another good point too, but I don't think we can deny the role it can have. I'm not saying every guy who learned from TRP won't take no for an answer, but what I am saying is with their ideology there's only so much rejection you can take up to a point. What happens if you get rejected 1000 times and you combine that with an ideology that tells you if she turned you down, it means you're not high value, desirable, or some shit like that. This will eat at their self-esteem and in some cases lash out and try other toxic tactics i.e "Why you got an attitude." "Do you know how many girls I get." "Fuck you, you ain't even that hot anyways."

"They're operating under a worldview that's outdated an unrealistic" buddy is this really the takeaway?? It's not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don't need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It's about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn't what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.

"Society has not told us how to be good men" are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be "good men" and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn't about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it's about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I'm saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?

As for the general tips you've laid out I got no problem with them except "learn about feminism" I did and I find out it wasn't about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I'm supporting that misandrist ideology.

As for the guy thinking woman is 'leading him on'. Guys don't get compliments since they're expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.

I heard their experiences before and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there's a vicious cycle at play that's making it happen. We've done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn't do the same for men. Instead, we just said "oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well" not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.

We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They're taught that if they don't do something, another guy will and he'd lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society's words or actions) that if he doesn't take action and make the approach, then he won't get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn't help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying "They're good with women" (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.

Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. "She rejected you because she saw you as low value" "She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta" "You're a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you" "She rejected you, you need rizz bro" "You're too nice and she didn't feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive". It also doesn't help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they've been taught.

Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he's not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I'd also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that's how you be an alpha and show her you're a 'sexual being' so she doesn't see you as a platonic friend. This doesn't excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.

This isn't new. PUA/TRP likely doesn't exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.

Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren't the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don't actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they're gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it'll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.

Now you are right that most of the things you've listed don't rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they're afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn't statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can't exercise caution. However, with the situations you've laid out, they're very common for women to experience them and it doesn't need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.

This explanation isn't me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they've learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don't have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we've reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they're interested in.

P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I've written out that time before it got deleted.

The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.

I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.

Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.

It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.

Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).

A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.

What about my advice bit is patronizing?