this post was submitted on 19 May 2025
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cross-posted from: https://feddit.uk/post/29013460

the local will outlast us all

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[–] NateNate60@lemmy.world 44 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (34 children)

This screenshot gets reposted a lot, and I really am not a big fan of it, for two reasons:

  1. A pub is not a country, and there are pubs in America that are older than America as well. Though this half of the planet only being known to dwellers of pub-having civilisations for a few hundred years seems to be rather much of a disadvantage.
  2. The concept of the US as a country is not very old but to the titular Yank's credit the US really is one of the oldest constitutional regimes in the world.

To elaborate on the second point, the US Constitution having been in continuous effect for nearly 250 years truly is rather impressive from a legal history perspective. While it's true that there has been a country called "France" for hundreds of years longer than the US, the French state in 1789 when the current American state began is not the same state as the French state of 2025, while the American state is still the same in its design and structure as in 1789. States are created by constitutions and laws but the idea of a "country" is nebulous and ill-defined. A state can be destroyed and replaced by revolution but the country is still there. So when someone says the USA is one of the oldest states in the world, that is mostly true.

For reference:

  • The Fifth French Republic began in 1958, or 1946 if you count the Fourth Republic. The previous French state (Vichy France) was destroyed by Nazi Germany.
  • The Federal Republic of Germany came into existence upon the entry into force of its Basic Law in 1949. The previous German state was destroyed by the Allies in World War II.
  • Spain's constitutional regime only came into place after the death of Franco in 1975. The modern Spanish state came into existence in 1978 with the ratification of its constitution.
  • The Russian state gained independence from the USSR only upon the latter's dissolution in 1991. Even if you count the Russian SSR government under the Soviet Union, remember that the Russian Revolution which destroyed the Czarist state only began in 1917 in any case.
  • The current Chinese state began in 1949 when Mao Zedong proclaimed its establishment in Tiananmen Square after kicking the Republic of China off the mainland. The Republic of China still exists in Taiwan which infamously is a cause of numerous discomforts between inhabitants of the two regions.
  • The current Japanese state was essentially created by the Americans after they occupied Japan. While the post-war constitution calls itself an "amendment" to the Meiji Constitution, in any case Emperor Meiji dissolved the previous iteration of the Japanese state (the Tokugawa Shogunate) in 1889 anyway.

The one major country I can think of right now whose government institutions can legitimately claim to have been in continuous existence for longer than the US is probably the United Kingdom. I'd say 1660 is the starting point of that, since prior to then, Britain was a republic. 1707 might be a valid date as well since it's when Scotland and England unified to form the United Kingdom. In either case that is older than 1789.

Edit: To the angry Europeans—before you comment, read the post carefully. I'm not talking about whether the US as a country is old. It most certainly is not. I'm saying that while the country is young, its institutions are comparatively old and have been in continuous operation for impressively long. No, they're not the oldest in the world by a long shot (I think San Marino takes that title) either. The idea of a country is defined by whatever the people who live in it define it to be, but the states and regimes that govern it come and go and are defined by laws and constitutions. And the one governing the United States has been around for longer than most.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

So they never upgrade their old shit you mean?

[–] NateNate60@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] Merva@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 days ago

If you choose to ignore amendments, sure. But nobody would do that with any good faith in this nonsense discussion.

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