this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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I recommend this video to look more into OSR philosophy regarding the rules: https://www.youtube.com/live/bCxZ3TivVUM?si=aZ-y2U_AVjn9a6Ua

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[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 20 points 2 years ago (2 children)

5e is pretty light though, and in most cases too light so the DM has no idea what to do and has to resort to "Rulings".

PF2e on the otherhand is crunchy AF and its awesome like that. It doesn´t have extra rules for everything, its all based on the same framework, which is pretty awesome.

[–] TheGreatDarkness@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You see, OSR fans would argue both 5e and Pathfinder have broken core rules engine because if it was well designed, you could apply it to all situations and wouldn't need separate rules for every minutia. By these standards 5e is crunch heavy with unnecessary things like "how to hold your breath"

[–] Skabb@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

At that point, you lose a lot of verisimilitude, and that's pretty important to me.

[–] Nerorero@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 years ago

But that's valid criticism. Rules have to justify their existence

[–] Dice@ttrpg.network -5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

PF2 is certainly easier to run. But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it's basically a video game system ported to tabletop. Everything is about the builds, not the characters.

[–] Nerorero@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The builds are an expression of character development tho.

[–] Dice@ttrpg.network -5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Character development as characterization or character development as shonen protagonist?

[–] TheGreatDarkness@ttrpg.network 4 points 2 years ago

PF2 is probably best game to play shonen protagonists, I'll give it that.

[–] Nerorero@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 years ago

Both, because it's high fantasy. The way that pf2 is designed you can pick almost anything at every level. If your character trains with monks for some time, great level that! Your great grandfather was an orc, but you are a gnome? We got you covered. The bloat is in the freedom of expression. And complaining about the 3 action system is okay, but come on

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What would it take to make it a RPG? Some characters are flawed in certain things while excel at others. But what you want your character to be, its in your hands due to how you build your character. That´s part of your character, same goes to the backstory you may have developed and inform your build.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it’s basically a video game system ported to tabletop

Uh.... tabletop came before videogames...

Anyway, no. An RPG is a Role Playing Game, it's a game where you take the role of someone, either created by you or given by the game (be it a videogame or not), and you experience the things that happens to that character.

Saying that TTRPGs are video games ported to TT is like saying that Lord of the Rings is a story written within the DnD lore. It's completely wrong.

[–] Dice@ttrpg.network -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Why is everyone here so bad at reading? I specifically am calling out PF2 for being designed as if it was a video game. I am saying Paizo doesn't understand the medium of RPGs, because they don't.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Well, given their success as a release, I'd say that they do inderstand the medium, and that not all RPGs must be made in the same line. I'd hate to play a game where I rescind all power to the GM.

I know that GMs always have the final say in any system, but having an expectation of what is going to happen is crucial to me as a player, and as stated in another comment, GMs need to have fun too, and sometimes having a well defined system is what a GM needs to feel like all they need to do is design and let the game take reins for balance. I understand that there are different types of GMs, but that's kind of the point.

[–] Dice@ttrpg.network 1 points 2 years ago

Understanding the market is not understanding the medium. Why is everyone putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating for some crazy free form improv without rolls or some other ruleless non-sense.

I'm saying that 5e and PF2 are not well-defined systems. You can have a different opinion, of course you will. And specifically that GMs burn out in these systems because they are not fun for GMs longterm.