Most of what you're talking about is put in ICE cars now also.
I just don't want my car listening to my conversations and tracking where I'm going. That would be nice.
this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2024
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[Dormant] Electric Vehicles (Moved to !electricvehicles@slrpnk.net)
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Very true. I haven't been looking at the ICE market mostly because I drive an old car and probably will until it breaks. But that's also very frustrating.
infotainment dash
Cars in the US are required to have rear-facing cameras. There's going to be a screen for that. It makes sense to incorporate some things into that screen, because that's what people expect now. Android Auto/Car Play for sure. Doesn't have to be a touchscreen; Mazda does that right with a center console knob and buttons.
OTA software updates are a good thing, to be able to address service issues without having to go to a dealership. Previously, car computer updates had to be done with a USB stick.
electric engine that is reliable
Electric motors are super reliable and hardly ever need servicing. Batteries are getting better, but as of right now, you have to replace the entire battery pack, at great cost. I'd love to see a more modular battery configuration with replaceable cells.
self-driving
Adaptive cruise control is a game changer in every way. It makes driving so much safer. The radar is already there, might as well using it for lane departure and steering assist.
Seriously where did they get that electric motors aren't reliable? The same motor technology has been powering diesel-electric locomotives for nearly a hundred years and those traction motors really rack up the miles...
Not to mention that the basic underlying premise of an electric motor is dead simple in comparison to an ICE.
Sure, it gets more complex the more you scale it up, etc. But at the end of the day, an eight year old can build an approximation of a motor.
Assisted driving is now evaluated as a safety feature by the certifications agency.
So unfortunately not adding adaptive cruise control, crash detection and all that would means degrading the safety rating of the car and no manufacturer would do that.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean that electric engines weren't reliable. It was more of a combination of things I'd like to see in an EV. And I'm all down for all those other features too! I just would like a barebones option for us poors, you know? You can have different tiered options, and maybe getting rid of all the extra features can make for a reliable cheaper car. And in a barebones model, why would you need constant OS updates? Just have the engine tuned like other things in a car like electric fuel injection. Everything else should be like clockwork.
Oh, I agree. I think the electric car market is way too "tech heavy," certainly for my liking, but I also think that at present, reducing the amount of fiddly tech stuff wouldn't reduce the price of the vehicle by very much. "Well, if I just pay a little bit more, I get a whole lot more."
The battery is what costs. And people who are going to buy a cheap electric car are going to be people for whom that is their only car, so it needs to do a lot of things, including going on long trips, which means having a long range. A 100-mile range commuter car would be perfect for a whole lot of people, except for that one time they might want to go on a vacation in it, or load it up with luggage and take three or four people to the airport.
I use a Gen 1 Nissan Leaf as a commuter car that I got for $9k. The average sales price for a new vehicle in general is around $40k these days. Get a used Chevy Bolt would be my recommendation, better range than the Leaf, CCS charging, and the price is probably around $12-14k.
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OTA software updates are a good thing, to be able to address service issues without having to go to a dealership. Previously, car computer updates had to be done with a USB stick.
Which I would vastly prefer over someone bricking my car remotely because some intern fat-fingered a command.
I agree, I want the dumbest ev possible. I'm a software dev and the last thing I want is a touch screen attached to a car you can't replace plus a battery you can't replace.
Touch screens are less intuitive and more distracting than simple buttons that you can use without taking your eyes off the road. And yes! Batteries degrade pretty quickly, I hear around 4 years! If a new battery costs the same of a brand new car then it doesn't make sense to buy EVs from a financial point of view.
Batteries do not degrade that quickly. Huge myth perpetrated by people who want the ice industry to keep running. For real proof of this you can look at the energy storage companies who are taking old batteries from Nissan leafs and Priuses from the early 2010s and see what that company rates the battery degradation at. It’s usually around 88-89%. That means in 10-14 years the battery has only degraded 10 percent. And that was old battery tech. It’s only gotten better since then.
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Batteries degrade pretty quickly, I hear around 4 years!
My car is 5 years old now and battery capacity is at 93% of original.
The conversion kit market might meet this desire a bit.
I suppose after market modifications are always a place to address needs not being met by manufacturers. But how likely are you going to do that if it voids your warranty, and your car needs to be maintained by authorized repair for things related to software that isn't available to the public or other things locked into the company ecosystem?
I was excited for this car that was all about simplicity and recyclability, sacrificing speed and features: https://www.citroen.co.uk/about-citroen/concept-cars/citroen-oli.html
But of course, they will never actually make and sell it :(
This seems like its exactly on point to what I was hoping for. I really hope this is something that takes off in the EV industry!
Seconded!!
Just enough computing power to handle braking regeneration, and charging.
I’ve driven for (Cough) years, I’m good. I’ll use Waze or something if I need help.
I don’t need 8 billion sensors thanks.
You don't need much computing power to control an EV. See all the electric scooters with absurdly dumb electronics. You just need to scale it up and use hardware matching the needs of a car. The logic can stay the exact same.
Exactly! Keep it simple!
The VW Beetle of EVs. Please
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_vehicle)
Tons of others, too. But yes, the selection is still obviously a bit spotty. Hopefully more practical and simple (and affordable) models turn up.
Genuinely the first thought that came into my head. I want one.
I think so, once infrastructure is built out and battery tech has been perfected.
As is, the market is small because you have to be a home owner (good luck charging in an apartment parking lot), and you need to bear the expense of new battery packs every few years.
I could get an EV for my next car, but when my loan is paid off, I now need to get a loan for a new car, or new batteries. A gas car might be less reliable, but it will run for several more years with minor work after the loan is paid off.
Most EVs have a 10 year / 100K miles warranty, at least in the US.
My family uses to have a leaf. Battery degradation was considered normal wear and tear, and the thing only had a reliable range of like 50 miles by the time they got rid of it.
1st gen leaf? If so, it only had like 85 mile range new, so that degradation isn't the worst. It has air cooled batteries too, so it's known to have probably the fastest degradation in the US market
I don't remember which generation. The range when new was supposed to be over 100 miles though. My dad figured out fast that 100 miles was very optimistic if you had the AC or the heater on.
Then like I said, it decayed rapidly and the last year they had it, he barely made it to work, left it on a charger all day, and barely made it back.
Yeah, the leaf is notorious for not having proper battery thermal management, meaning it overheats when charging, which results in aggressive degradation. The small battery also means that you put many more full discharge-recharged cycles on the battery, which again accelerates degradation.
I bought an Hyundai Ioniq 5, with a 77.4 KWh battery, which is supposed to go 488 km (or 303 miles) of course it doesn't quite in real life, but it seems to handle about 422 km on a full charge. That battery pack has a liquid coolant loop, and the car actively heats and cools the the battery pack to keep it's temperature in the sweetspot, both when charging and driving. Additionally the car comes with a 8 year warranty on the battery pack, so if it loses more than 30% capacity, it will be a warranty replacement.
That being said, some of the people who bought a 2022 Ioniq 5 has tested their batteries now after 2 years of use, and even people who have almost exclusively fast charged the car are seeing less than 3% degradation over the 2 years of ownership.
Many other EVs come with 10 year warranties on the battery packs.
Tesla (which also have thermal management) has also publicised statistics that say that their vehicles have on average 12% degradation after driving 200.000 miles.
I think that makes sense. Seems to me that the EV market is mostly considered a luxury commodity at the moment and so isn't being made as a dependable and meaningful alternative to ICE machines yet. It partly worries me though that some law initiatives are pushing for EVs but without addressing waste, and ownership and reliability that applies to dumb cars. I've owned my ICE car for almost 2 decades, and that's something I'd like to see in an EV before I can make the switch.
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I know right, I've never understood why manufacturers making cars for people suffering from range anxiety want to have a motor to open and close the trunk or extend the door handles. Like people can't just lift it up or shut it by hand as we've done for decades?
A typical EV has 65 kWh of power. It can provide 65 thousand watts of power for a full hour. That is a massive amount of power compared to which opening a trunk is an unnoticeable rounding error.
For me it's more about repairability and cost. I can easily replace a mechanical handle, that would probably be tougher and cheaper than an electric moving one.
Okay, I see. My 10-year-old gas car also has a powered liftgate. I hadn’t considered that to be an EV-related feature. Powered door handles are more common on EVs though.
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Lotus is releasing an EV to the British market that is very stripped down and pretty simple as far as cars go. Problem is I don't think they are releasing to the US market.
Hard to believe that lotus would be the one to give us a stripped down value EV. It would be kinda ironic though since without lotus, tesla wouldn't have a body for the original roadster that got them where they are today.
Canoo vehicles seem pretty simple in principle, but we won't know for sure until they actually start shipping (if they ever do).
As an added bonus, I think they look bad ass.
In all technology, personal data tracking effectively subsidizes the cost of the device. They can run lower margins with a data-based revenue stream to appease shareholders. If you want privacy, you’ll have to pay more for it.
But does this option even exist?
It does in other forms of technology. It’s only a matter of time until the news shames the practice in the automotive industry enough for a manufacturer to realize that privacy has value in marketing.
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But does it really subsidize the cost at all? Seems like its more of an additional revenue stream than anything else. So many EVs with tracking are still expensive, so how are they meaningfully making the cars more affordable?
Why do you think Google can sell the Pixel at such a low price point? The hardware far outperforms other phones in its price range. The difference is that Google is very clear about its use of data collection, and automotive companies are still new to the game, selling it to anyone with a checkbook.
I can get behind tracking for subsidies. I think the underlying issue is the lack of choice. Coming from someone who uses a pixel, at least you have the option to flash whatever operating system you want onto the device. Despite there being some tracking even with Graphene OS, a consumer still has some control over how their phone works. I don't think that'll be an option for any EV that depends on software to function - especially with how hard manufacturers are locking you into their services.
You’re evading the tracking that provides the revenue offset of the slimmer margin. The more users that take that approach, the more expensive the hardware price point becomes.
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