Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world
I write in the book that there's a weird combination of entitlement and inadequacy. You're entitled as your birthright as a male to women's bodies, you're entitled to power, you're entitled to glory, you're entitled to this heroic position. But you're also never going to meet it, so you're always going to feel shame and inadequacy. That combination makes is like a perfect storm for this resentment and emasculation.
This is interesting, Ive never thought of it that way. Tell men they have a right to a particular way of life, then make it next to impossible to achieve and finally feed off the resentment that perceived failure breeds.
I have actually never felt entitled to these things. What I mostly feel is a responsibility. If something breaks I'm supposed to know how to fix it. Because of this I have become good at fixing things. If we are lost I'm supposed to find where we are, so I study maps before I go somewhere new. If a decision needs to be made, again, eyes turn to me, so I need to know a little about everything, and never look indecisive. If an unexpected expense comes up, I need to have money saved away for this purpose. The punishment for failing things like this is not disapproval from other men or feeling less masculine. The punishment is that I'm viewed as less by my girlfriend. This is how I think things go hand in hand. By helping women get empowered, we can share responsibilities. By women helping us feel valued for ourselves, worthy of love, desired as we are, we don't need to constantly fear being seen as less... then, I don't know. Maybe it would also lead to men feeling safer to be better human beings. The impossible dilemma now, for me, is that I'm still expected to be successful in the traditionally masculine things, while at the same time not being successful in the traditionally masculine things. No way to win.
Wow the only sane comment I found in this thread so far.
The issue isn’t masculinity or how it can be toxic (to even suggest it is insulting imo).
The issue is:
Society does not value men!!!
That’s it, it’s not complicated at all. It’s not this weird problem with masculinity.
Society does not value men inherently like women (as in for just existing), it values the benefit they can provide.
This has been the case in all of human history. The difference now is that we no longer prepare most/all men to be able to provide the most value they can.
I always thought the solution was to value men inherently too. But that means saying a “you go bro” to incels and other “low value” men.
I hope more people will talk about this. In the near future I’ll be writing a study of this, hoping it’ll reach at least somebody.
This was originally a reply to a comment but I thought it’s important enough to reply to the post too:
The issue isn’t masculinity or how it can be toxic (to even suggest it is insulting imo).
The issue is:
Society does not value men!!!
That’s it, it’s not complicated at all. It’s not this weird problem with masculinity.
Society does not value men inherently like women (as in for just existing), it values the benefit they can provide.
This has been the case in all of human history. The difference now is that we no longer prepare most/all men to be able to provide the most value they can.
I always thought the solution was to value men inherently too. But that means saying a “you go bro” to incels and other “low value” men.
The best way I've heard it put is that society values women for what they are, and values men for what they do. This is bad for everyone, of course, but it's how things have worked.
That’s a good way to put it.
It’s also what I meant by women being valued inherently.
It’s like conditional love vs unconditional love, they are VERY different.
I’m not sure I agree with that. Society values women for all the wrong reasons (sexual objects, something to be controlled, etc). Men are valued for the wrong reasons too (physical prowess, etc).
Well I’m not claiming that women are or are not valued for the wrong reasons, just that they are not mainly valued for the benefits they provide but men are.
I’m saying men being valued for the benefit they provide without support is why there is a lot of mental health issues today. And that what people call “toxic masculinity” is basically caused by this expectation that society puts on men.
Damn sucks to live with people who are upset your children born are the wrong gender.
Is this sub about actual mens liberation and not just a reactionary movement?
The former :)
Good.
Men’s liberation is a far cry from MRAs, which is probably what you’re thinking of
It's mainly what you see these days, isn't it. Lemmy is a different energy though, I like it.
The men's lib subreddit used to be very good as well. (It probably still is, I just haven't checked it in a while.)
The patriarchy says it's weak to cry.
Is this phrasing helpful or hurtful.
Its making it sound like patriarchy isnt a nebulous web of consequences.
If its giving people the idea that the patriarchy is something akin to a politcal party or movement then we should probably stop unintentionally giving people the wrong target to hit.
Its a thing of a billion selfish decisions and consequences going back thousands of years.
You cant just name it and scare it away, you have to understand how it still exists and set the path for self correction when decisions are made that affect and effect people broadly.
It cant be fixed by making gender based corrective rules or legislation, its by adopting good practices when making policies for people you wont ever see or hear from because they arent born yet. Hilariously to me, im kind of saying wont we just think about the children.
Like climate change and pollution its not the world today we can fix, its fixing today so the world can be fixed later
And thats why its so hard, everyone is arguing about what is first thing we should already be doing but arent
We need to just start making choices now whenever we find the opportunity, that we wont have to revisit tomorrow.
And that means finding common ground so we can start agreeing on somethings and making some decisions like that today.
And im not smart enough acheive that, and it looks like around the world we are all having a hard time finding choices that arent getting unmade by the next people who get to make decisions