this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2025
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106
Are there alternatives for Europeans who dont want to be "purchase taxed" by VISA and MASTER CARD? (lemmy.ca)
submitted 3 months ago by orize@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/buyeuropean@feddit.uk
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[โ€“] njordomir@lemmy.world 34 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes,

After World War II and through recent times (well after the DM to โ‚ฌ switch), Germany was one of the most cash-happy countries. If you didn't carry cash on you, there was a good chance you'd end up stuck and unable to pay for something. Even today, many businesses don't take credit cards compared to the US.

Using a card demands that you trust Visa, MC, etc. with your data as well as pay a fee.

The last time I was there (Christmas time) I was horrified to see the inroads these bloodsucking leeches made into Germany. People around the world are selling themselves and future generations into economic servitude and making themselves targets for corporate surveillance based advertising at an alarming rate.

Now would be a great time for a worldwide cash-based movement to spring up.

I ran a cash-based business for a decade and it wasn't so I could cheat on taxes (I paid those every year). It was so I could deny the CC companies their undeserved cut and remain congruent with my values.

Convenience or Freedom

Choose one.

[โ€“] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Some businesses in Germany only accept cards like giro and ec, so that's another possibility. In Portugal some businesses only accept MB cards. In Denmark some places only use Mobile Pay. It's definitely becoming more common for Mastercard and Visa to be accepted in all 3, but alternatives did exist.

[โ€“] njordomir@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

True, even before Visa and MC started making inroads, I was seeing EC cards commonly in Germany, but usually only for certain uses. The fact that some businesses now operate in a cash exclusionary way frightens me a little. We're headed for sci-fi dystopia.

[โ€“] zaphod@sopuli.xyz 26 points 3 months ago

Cash.

[โ€“] jlow@beehaw.org 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Interestingly, I just (10 minutes ago) learned about

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)

which seems to be in a fledgling stage but still further along than

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Taler

[โ€“] jlow@beehaw.org 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Danmark (and Finnland apparently, I think I've also seen it in Sweden?) also have

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobilePay

[โ€“] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 4 points 3 months ago

Here in Sweden most people use Swish

[โ€“] renzhexiangjiao@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 3 months ago (3 children)

in Poland we have blik, and it's really popular

I make all my purchases online with blik, you can also use it in shops but it's a bit less convenient than paying with card

[โ€“] sikoraig@szmer.info 7 points 3 months ago

I switched to Blik recently, and it's just slightly less convenient. Instead of just beeping a card, you need to enter the code from app and approve in the app. Takes 30sec more, but I'm happy for this to endorse Polish system.

[โ€“] sznowicki@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Blik has no chargeback equivalent

[โ€“] szczuroarturo@programming.dev 1 points 3 months ago

Im pretty sure blik still uses mastercard something in backend for contacless payments in shops.

[โ€“] BastingChemina@slrpnk.net 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There is the CB network but working in France

[โ€“] AtariDump@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Breaker breaker 1-9; whatโ€™s my account balance?

[โ€“] blackfire@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

So dumb but I laughed o hard

[โ€“] hitwright@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

SEPA and Iban. It's as simple as it gets. Also much more secure considering it's a push payment instead of a pull one.

For easy payments, there is this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code

[โ€“] Kualdir@feddit.nl 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Currently there are only alternatives online like Klarna (and iDeal in the Netherlands). The only way to do it in store is paying cash sadly

[โ€“] Liljekonvalj@feddit.org 3 points 3 months ago

Klarna has american connections. One of the biggest shareholders are "sequoia capital" 'merican

[โ€“] Tuuktuuk@sopuli.xyz -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

What's so "sadly" about it? It's a solution to a problem, it's easy, and it's simple.

[โ€“] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Because many times I leave home with just my phone.

[โ€“] Tuuktuuk@sopuli.xyz 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That's a problem easy to solve, though :))

[โ€“] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Do tell. Carrying coins around is not always an option

[โ€“] Tuuktuuk@sopuli.xyz 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

How isn't it?

[โ€“] dieTasse@feddit.org 1 points 3 months ago

I think the point is that not everybody's life revolve around thinking about more private options (mine does lol, gotta push those limits) or cash in this case. It sure is better, but it also is less convenient and that is a fact. People do have hardships in their lives and its good to have something easy instead of adding more to your plate. For people like me its fun, but for most its a chore.

[โ€“] Kualdir@feddit.nl 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Cash is insanely inconvenient, cannot be used at self checkout (which is the only reason I don't despise doing groceries), is more risk carrying big amounts and not even accepted above a certain amount in most stores.

We just need an actual Visa/Mastercard EU edition.

[โ€“] notfromhere@lemmy.one 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If you are building a CC network, look at blockchain as the method, specifically Monero or XMR. It is anonymous and so far had been unbroken so is currently untraceable. If EU supports anonymous purchases then even better, just feed cash into the ATM to load your XMR-backed account.

[โ€“] Kualdir@feddit.nl 2 points 3 months ago

I would rather use cash than ever touch something using blockchain technology

[โ€“] Tuuktuuk@sopuli.xyz 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Cash (banknotes and coins) can be used at self-checkout in Germany, so it can be used at self-checkouts anywhere, assuming the shop hasn't blocked that.

Its super easy, even. You throw the coins in a kind of a bucket and the machine counts them very quickly. Then you get the change in a tray with a round bottom so it's super easy scooping it all with one move.

If cash becomes a big thing again, it will be usable at self-checkouts outside Germany as well. Shops don't want to pay extra salary expenses just to avoid having a reasonably cheap device at their self-checkout counter.

[โ€“] Kualdir@feddit.nl 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I've never seen cash accepted at self checkout in Belgium or the Netherlands and that still doesn't take away at how inconvenient cash is overall.

[โ€“] Tuuktuuk@sopuli.xyz 2 points 3 months ago

Yup, I've only ever seen that in Germany. In Finland we also need to queue if we want to pay by cash. I don't know why they want to pay for all those extra cashiers.

[โ€“] beeng@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 3 months ago

A bank debit card strapped to the back of your phone. SEPA

[โ€“] FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 months ago

Does twint have a mastercard like fee?

[โ€“] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Just out of curiosity, what purchase taxes are you talking about ? Aside from the yearly fee and the occasional (quite steep though) tax when I withdraw money too many times from non-VISA ATMs I don't think I have many extra fees with mine.

[โ€“] jafffacakelemmy@mander.xyz 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Maybe you dont have too many extra fees, but when you use your visa card or MasterCard to buy from a merchant, 3% of the purchase price is paid by the merchant to visa/MasterCard. In the long run that puts prices up because the vendor is passing on those costs to you, the buyer. Its a tricky issue because if you pay cash, the shop has to store, transport securely, and pay to deposit the cash into a business bank account. That might cost around 3% of their takings too. The feeling here is that if you buy 100 pounds worth of shopping, it doesn't cost visa/MasterCard anything like 3 pounds to process that payment, more like a few pence. So perhaps we are being taken advantage of?

[โ€“] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I see, that makes sense. Y'all might be talking me into switching to Revolut. Though I've gotta say that Visa's insurance saved my ass this very weekend by handling everything to bring me and my gf home after a visit to the ER that left us stranded 800 km from home (even though we are both on the cheapest visa cards available in our country), so I'll have to see if they have similar stuff

[โ€“] HotChickenFeet@sopuli.xyz 1 points 3 months ago

Hopefully you can find something that fills that need - but if it's not possible you can always significantly reduce your usage of the visa in favor of better alternatives. Then just use the visa where you feel you must for insurance protection.

[โ€“] tetris11@feddit.uk 1 points 3 months ago

N26, berlin-based, they handle the fees

[โ€“] tobifant@friendica.tf-translate.net 1 points 3 months ago

@orize The European alternative would be SEPA instant transfer, Klarna, or the German "EC card" system (which I heard have started becoming available for online use, though not those of my bank). But thank you for briging this to my attention. I think I will cancel my American Express card immediately. I won't miss that one. As to going credit card free, that will be a bit harder.

[โ€“] Foreigner@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

If you're in France there's the Carte Bancaire.

Edit: I've just looked into Revolut and they're UK based with operations throughout Europe, so they might be an alternative for online payments across borders.

[โ€“] dieTasse@feddit.org 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Revolut is Lithuanian I think.

[โ€“] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

They are based in the UK as stated by OP, but European clients go through a Lithuanian subsidiary

[โ€“] dieTasse@feddit.org 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Ok, but they were founded in Lithuania right? Its not really important all is Europe I just thought there is more to it than just EU liaison.

[โ€“] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Wiki says it was founded in the UK. Founders have very Slavic names but it doesn't specify their origin

[โ€“] dieTasse@feddit.org 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

ok, thank you :) And I know I could have found it myself, but sometimes internet just takes fun out of conversations ๐Ÿ˜€ (I mean internet search and stuff, because lol this is also internet :)

[โ€“] tobifant@friendica.tf-translate.net 1 points 3 months ago

@orize Another Euroepan one I just found about: Wero. Already with some European banks, more to come. Phase-in at local dealers to be expected this year.