this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2023
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[–] GCostanzaStepOnMe@feddit.de 164 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Haha, funny way to say "working in the lead mines", comrade.

[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 72 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Comrade, we all know lead poisoning and the need for safety gear are capitalist propaganda! Now, get back in the mines! Production must increase 50% this year, and your state-appointed union representative says it can!

[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 130 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (33 children)
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[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 155 points 2 years ago (72 children)

What is it with these commie types that they believe communism will leave everyone to become hippies who can do whatever they want and all required resources just magically arrive when they need.

It really is watching children believe in Santa Claus

[–] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 102 points 2 years ago (44 children)

If we didn't all work to produce excess wealth for the super wealthy, we'd have 20 hour workweeks. People can do a lot with that extra time.

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[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 44 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Ah yes, because everything you do is to meet societal needs and not to make more money for the 1%. That's why 34% of wealth in Canada goes to the top 1%.

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[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 121 points 2 years ago (39 children)

When you own the means of production it's literally yours. I don't understand the issue.

[–] youCanCallMeDragon@lemmy.world 30 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Big difference between communism and socialism.

[–] nightdice@feddit.de 44 points 2 years ago (23 children)

That's correct, but I'm not sure what you understand those terms to mean, because neither really supports taking all ownership away from people. I'm just gonna leave this blorb here, because I feel like this is where it fits best.

Communism in the style of Marx and Engels means that the workers own the means of production. They would have been completely in favor of a person owning their own farm (or jointly owning it if multiple people worked it). They didn't really envision much of a state to interfere, much less own property.

That the Soviet Union (and later the PRC, fuck them btw) claimed to be building the worker's paradise under communism was mostly propaganda after Lenin died. There hasn't been any state that has implemented actual communism as established by theory.

Socialism (as I understand it, but I'm not well-read on it) means the state has social support networks, but largely works under capitalist rules, with bans of exploitative practices. There are some countries trying to implement a light version of this across Europe, to varying success (mostly failing where capitalism is left unchecked).

The issue is that the US started propagandizing like mad during the cold war, and "communism" was just catchier to say than "supportive of a country that is really just a state-owned monopoly". Soon everything that was critical of capitalism also became "communism", which eventually turned into a label for everything McCarthy labelled "un-american". This is also the time they started equating the terms communism and socialism. A significant portion of the US population hasn't moved past that yet, because it fits well into the propaganda of the US being the best country in the world, the American Dream, all that bs. The boogeyman of "the state will take away the stuff you own" turned out pretty effective in a very materialistic society. Although I'm very glad to see more and more USAians get properly educated on the matter and standing up for their rights rather than letting themselves be exploited.

[–] Nezgul@reddthat.com 23 points 2 years ago

Your definition of socialism is more akin to a definition of social democracy, which is... maybe a form of socialism, depending on who you ask -- it is historically contentious and generally accepted that social democrats aren't socialists.

Socialism can have all of the things that you described, but it is decidedly anti-capitalist. It reorients how workers relate to the means of production. Under capitalism, the means of production are owned by the bourgeois class, while under socialism, they are collectively owned by the workers.

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[–] BilboBargains@lemmy.world 92 points 2 years ago
[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 79 points 2 years ago (9 children)

I too want a post-scarcity luxury space communism utopia. Unfortunately most iterations of communism feel more like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic than actually plugging the hole in the fuselage.

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[–] vsis@feddit.cl 72 points 2 years ago (3 children)

...until the central committee decides that more coal miners are required.

[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 years ago (6 children)

You say that like it's worse than the current capitalist epidemic of giga corporations pushing independent farmers out of the market to the point of leaving them jobless and forced to sell their farm to them for cheap.

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[–] willeypete23@reddthat.com 65 points 2 years ago (13 children)

Dude why do people think communism means you can't own anything. There's a difference between private and personal properties. You can own a house, and a car, hell even a whole farm. What you cannot do is hold capital.

[–] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 35 points 2 years ago (7 children)

A farm is means of production, therefore it would classify as public property. You cannot own production under communism, only products.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Therefore it could count as a means of production but in general in Communism personal farms of reasonable size and constant use are encouraged. Again, that's a misunderstanding of communism.

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[–] huge_clock@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

Because in practice the line between capital and personal property is very thin. Can a car or apartment not be used to generate income in a modern economy?

When the soviets were in power they would force multiple families under one roof (kommunalka). Think 4-8 families sharing a kitchen and a bathroom. Each family was given just one room and all housing was considered communal housing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_apartment?wprov=sfti1

After Stalin’s death families began receiving single family apartments due to massive housing reform by Kruschev, but were hastily built and called ‘khrushchyoba,’ a cross between Khrushchev's name and the Russian term for slums. That by the way still leaves a multigenerational period from 1917-1954 where the kommunalka would have been the primary unit of housing.

[–] Muetzenman@feddit.de 17 points 2 years ago (31 children)

You can generate money with a car or a farm. The whole problem with capitalism is getting money without working because you let people work with your stuff. So owning a car and use ist as a taxi is fine with communism. Having a taxi company is not. But you can form a taxi company with others. The difference is no one has financial power over others. No one just profits because he/she is the owner. There are people in charge but they are in charge because they have the knowledge and ability not just because they own everything and can do what they want.

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[–] LinkOpensChest_wav@beehaw.org 58 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I've never understood how this is supposed to be some big own to communism. You'd still refer to it as "my farm," even as I refer to the community where I live as "my city" and the jobs I've worked to benefit some capitalist bozo as "my job." This is even worse than Ben Shapiro popping out of a well. In many ways, I think I'd feel more ownership as part of a community vs. the facade of "private property."

[–] volodymyr@kbin.social 18 points 2 years ago (3 children)

This particular thing was actually tried by the Soviets. Farms were considered excesses of kulaks. Kolhos (collective "farm") was the replacement.

And yes, it was possible to say "my kolhoz" like people say "my city", good point. Even if "our kolhoz" was a lot more accepted, since it emphasizes how collective it is.
It is also possible to feel personal affinity to collectively owned space.

The difference between usually implied individual "my farm" and collective "my farm" is of course in the governance.

Collective ownership may end up being governed by ineffective unaccountable and irresponsible "people representatives". E.g. deciding that genetics is a capitalist plot, and planting corn everywhere is the solution to all problems (both cases actually happened on a massive scale).

The result is not very different from what ineffective unaccountable and irresponsible large capitalist landowners do.

Both systems disenfranchise the disadvantaged ones, since decisions can practically never be completely unanimous.
So it's good if you agree with the party line, but if not - violent suppression comes, no teaching on the farm.
That's where the feeling of "my farm" breaks down. On a private farm you have a lot more options before you are lost.

I get the challenges with governance in capitalism-turining-feodalism which we have now in many cases.
But I do not get it why people imagine that full collective ownership is a good and sustainable alternative.

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[–] jaybone@lemmy.world 38 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It’s my farm too. We all own farm. Back to work comrade.

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[–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 25 points 2 years ago (18 children)

For those interested, Dessalines' "what would be X like under communism" is a helpful aggregated of discussions regarding this: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#what-would-x-be-like-under-communism

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[–] scubbo@lemmy.ml 21 points 2 years ago

Arguments about the definitions of Communism or Property aside - yes, my farm. As in, the one I work on. The possessive pronoun, despite the name, sometimes connotes association rather than ownership - I do not own my school, my country, my street or (despite what Republicans might wish) my wife.

[–] macisr@unilem.org 20 points 2 years ago

It's always cartoon pfp users the most delusional.

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