this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2025
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This was not inevitable. This is a war Israel chose. It could have been prevented. Diplomatic talks were ongoing when the bombers took off for Iran. Israel’s continuing, illegal, unjustified airstrikes are unlikely to achieve their stated aim – permanently ending Tehran’s presumed efforts to build nuclear weapons – and may accelerate it. They must stop now. Likewise, Iran must halt its retaliation immediately and drop its escalatory threats to attack US and UK bases.

This conflict is not limited, as was the case last year, to tit-for-tat exchanges and “precision strikes” on a narrow range of military targets. It’s reached a wholly different level. Potentially nothing is off the table. Civilians are being killed on both sides. Leaders are targets. The rhetoric is out of control. With Israel fighting on several fronts, and Iran’s battered regime backed against a wall, the Middle East is closer than ever to a disastrous conflagration.

Reasons can always be found to go to war. The roots of major conflicts often reach back decades – and this is true of the Israel-Iran vendetta, which dates to the 1979 Islamic revolution. The so-called “shadow war” between the two intensified in recent years. Yet all-out conflict had been avoided, until now. So who is principally to blame for this sudden, unprecedented explosion?

Answer: three angry old men whose behaviour raises serious doubts about their judgment, common sense, motives and even their sanity.

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[–] vga@sopuli.xyz 15 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

You forgot the worst one: Putin, age 72 years.

[–] wpb@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Great man theory nonsense. Was Netanyahu in power during the Sabra and Shatila massacre? During the Nakba? During the June 1967 war? Was Trump president when the US invaded Iraq? Was he president when the US sent billions of dollars in military aid to Israel to commit their genocide with? It's the countries, not the leaders. They're just the personification of a system. You could shoot each of these men in the head today, and nothing would change.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Trump, definitely. He's at least too dumb to be evil effectively, I shudder to think where Vance would take things if he decides to keep the MAGA line going.

Netanyahu dying would lead to a collapse of his government and a more moderate faction coming to power and probably ending the wars... for now.

I know less about the internal politics of Iran, although this war they didn't start obviously wouldn't end.

[–] wpb@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

There is broad support in Israeli society for the ongoing genocide in Gaza. There are polls showing as much (I think one of them showed a rate of 82%). This is not one man's whim, this is not the will of some small shady elite, this is a consequence of material conditions in Israel. If you don't take those away, some other face will lead the charge.

Plus I'm not convinced that an assassination of Netanyahu would lead to a different party taking charge. I can't imagine their system of governance is set up this way. But this is entirely beside the point. The point is that one man's death doesn't change history. The allies didn't win WWII because Hitler killed himself, Hitler killed himself because the allies won WWII.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There is broad support in Israeli society for the ongoing genocide in Gaza. There are polls showing as much (I think one of them showed a rate of 82%).

I did say "for now".

I'm guessing "genocide" wasn't in the wording of the poll question, but a two-state solution is just as fringe as a one state solution at this point. The vibe of the average Israeli is that they want Palestinians gone and don't want to talk or even think about how.

Plus I’m not convinced that an assassination of Netanyahu would lead to a different party taking charge. I can’t imagine their system of governance is set up this way.

How much do you know about the system?

It's a party list parliament with a pretty high degree of political fragmentation, comparable to the Netherlands. Netanyahu started with a slim majority propped up by the far-right parties, and his party has polled poorly since they let Oct 7 happen. Security was his main thing. He's globally famous for his skill holding together coalitions, which he couldn't do while dead, and it's pretty typical to hold snap elections after something like that anyway. His successor also wouldn't need to worry about being thrown in jail for corruption the moment they're out of office.

But this is entirely beside the point. The point is that one man’s death doesn’t change history. The allies didn’t win WWII because Hitler killed himself, Hitler killed himself because the allies won WWII.

Great man theory is indeed dumb, but "leaders don't change anything even in the short term" is too far in the other direction.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

There are actually some differences here. After the Cold War ended Israel was making some peace deals. The Oslo Accords(1993 and 1995) and a deal with Jordan 1994 were big parts of that. In 1996 Netanyahu came to power and basically all of that stopped. There was a bit with Ariel Sharon being in power, when Israel gave up its settlement in the Gaza strip. Netanyahu was not prime minister all the time, but he was in government and more often then not in position to sabotage that. The only time he failed was Ariel Sharon ordering to close the Jewish settlements in Gaza. He is really the main reason there is no somewhat working two state solution today.

Trump currently sents billions of aid to Israel to commit genocide AND fight a war within Iran. So yes he is that president. Biden at least used the US military to send some food to Gaza, Trump stopped that.

Khamenei is the leader of Iran since 1989. He is hardly innocent of supporting the Assad clan, destroying democracy in Lebanon by supporting Hezbollah, massive war crimes in Sudan happening right now, with the biggest starvation crisis in the world, although not as hard as Gaza, the huge civil war in Yemen and so forth. Keep in mind that before the Iranian revolution Israel and Iran were very close allies. They even developed fighter jets together. Point is that both countries are not natural enemies.

At least two of those men have formed their respective countries and systems for decades. If you killed Netanyahu today, then it would mean a new election and likely a win for the liberals, which is usually good news for Palastinians. If you killed Khamenei today, then there is a pretty good chance, that the infighting would end the Islamic Republic. Iran has had some massive protests in the last couple years. If you kill Trump, then the Vance ends up president and he lacks the charisma of Trump and is not even directly elected.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Do you really think Trump's supporters would suddenly support Democrats, and, do you really think a power vacuum in Iran would make the Middle East more peaceful?

Similarly, don't skip over the part where the Oslo process ended when Netanyahu's current cabinet had Rabin assassinated. Natanyahu is a linchpin, but the right exists independent of him, and the left is still pretty anti-Palestinian.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Never said that Trump supporters would switch sites. I said that Vance is less popular, which means less likely to get as many people to activly vote for him.

A power vacuum in Iran would have a good chance of ending the civil war in Sudan. So I believe the odds are pretty good,especially if it is a short one.

Every Iraeli and Palestinian has experienced violence from the other site. Clearly Israel is occupying the West Bank and not the other was around, but it would be foolish of me to presume that the Israeli left loves Palestinians. Thankfully they do not need to, but just need to make a deal. Without shooting at each other relations will improve. Obviously the right is independent of Natanyahu, but current polls still show them loosing power.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 days ago

I'll admit my knowledge of Sudan is fuzzy. It's a huge catastrophe, but it just seems unlikely to spread the way the other crises can. Doesn't the UAE have a big hand in it too?

I'm skeptical inspiring middle-of-the-road voters is really that important anymore in the US. Most likely, future elections will not be fully free and fair.

[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

And Putin (72), and Xi Jing Ping (72)

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 93 points 4 days ago (4 children)

Don't forget Putin...

Fuck thes old, power-hungry war-mongering pieces of excrement. Their death will be celebrated by millions.

Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.

[–] vga@sopuli.xyz 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.

While I partially agree on this, let's consider some cases:

  • Hitler's reign 1933-1945, his age: 44-56
  • Stalin 1922-1952, age 44-74
  • Putin 2000-?, age 48-?
  • Pol Pot 1963-1981, age 38-56
  • Louis XIV 1643-1715, age 5-77 or 16-77 if you count coronation as the start (sacre bleu jesus fuck)
  • Xi Jinping 2012-?, age 59-?

Youth is clearly not enough. Age limit + term limit might be a useful combination, but it all falls down when you allow somebody to just grab all power anyway and reset all the rules and limits, like Putin and Xi Jinping have done.

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[–] Honytawk@feddit.nl 15 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (8 children)

Putin is by far the worst one.

Neither Netanyahu nor Khamenei have the capacity for war the way the other 2 have.

And Putin already has achieved what Trump wants to achieve: being a dictator with full control of the state.

Oh how much the world would improve if all 4 of them suddenly get a bullet between the eyes.

[–] shroomato@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

They would immediately get replaced with someone just as bad if not worse. The world has an endless supply of power hungry warmongering assholes.

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[–] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 19 points 4 days ago

Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.

Yeah, people who are young enough to actually have to worry about the future.

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[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

What an insanely stupid article. Israel bombs Iran completely unprovoked. Khamenei and Iran are incredibly responsible and measured in their response. Meanwhile Israel is flailing around like a wild bully with their American big brother behind its back, threatening Iran that they are not allowed to strike back

And the liberals from TheGuardian write a both sides article about it as if all parties share blame.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

If Israel has a right to defend itself, what does (still awful government of) Iran have?

I guess blaming Netanyahu and Trump only would have lead to too much blowback. The Guardian really doesn't seem like it's the same anymore.

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[–] Naevermix@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

you know it's bad when western MSM is both-siding it

[–] MetalMachine@feddit.nl 19 points 3 days ago (7 children)

Ah yes, blame all three even though its been clearly israel and Netanyahu who have been beating the war drums for 30+ years. Israel has been talking about Iran developing a nuke for 30 years and saying that "its around the corner". Israel did the same with Iraq btw and dragged the US to war.

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[–] colonelsharki@lemmy.world 57 points 4 days ago (10 children)

Khamenei maybe an angry old man considering his country is facing an existential threat but Netanyahu is a wanted war criminal and Trump is a rapist with nefarious ties to the notorious Epstein

[–] FreeBird@lemmy.dbzer0.com 56 points 4 days ago (22 children)

My Iranian ass spending minutes to get my VPN working so I can access lemmy and watch people whitewash the man responsible for all my misery only to shit on Netanyahu and Trump:

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[–] teslasaur@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

In any other country, Khamenei would be considered a pedophile.

You know, the whole marrying children business.

[–] KumaSudosa@feddit.dk 10 points 4 days ago (12 children)

Stop pretending like Khamenei isn't a criminal. He's not just an angry old man because they're "facing an existential threat" he's a fuckwad through and through and no Iranian would shed a tear if he was shelled. Israel certainly started this iteration of the conflict but Khamenei and the regime has a rap sheet far longer than Trump's.

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[–] Doorbook@lemmy.world 32 points 4 days ago

damn they just pretend the UK is not the country that fuel Jets over Iraq to facilitate the bombing. Or it is not the UK base in Cyprus and vessels that provide a command center and communication tool to facilitate the mission.

If you want to attack Iran and accelerate to a wwiii don't shy from telling the truth about your involvement, we know it, you know it ...

[–] RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world 22 points 4 days ago

False equivalencies.

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Peak liberal both sidesism. Desperately clinging to the illusion that USA good, Iran bad. This is a big part of why we have genocide against palestinians and trump in office.

[–] nyamlae@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

Desperately clinging to the illusion that USA good

You are either being dishonest or have bad reading comprehension. The OP clearly labels Trump as part of the problem, alongside Netanyahu and Khameini. They also blame Israel for escalating with Iran when talks were still ongoing. They are not saying what you claim they are.

Where did you read "USA good" in that post?

[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 20 points 4 days ago

The Zygon Inversion - A Transcript of The Doctor's Speech [edited for brevity]

The Doctor: You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. You're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle?

Bonnie: Why should we?

The Doctor: What is it that you actually want?

Bonnie: War.

The Doctor: Ah. And when this war is over, when -- when you have the homeland free from humans, what do you think it's going to be like? Do you know? Have you thought about it? Have you given it any consideration? Because you're very close to getting what you want. What's it going to be like? Paint me a picture. Are you going to live in houses? Do you want people to go to work? What'll be holidays? Oh! Will there be music? Do you think people will be allowed to play violins? Who will make the violins? Well? Oh, You don't actually know, do you? Because, just like every other tantruming child in history, Bonnie, you don't actually know what you want. So, let me ask you a question about this brave new world of yours. When you've killed all the bad guys, and it's all perfect and just and fair, when you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do with the people like you? The troublemakers. How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one?

. . .

The Doctor: This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought right there in front of you. Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning -- sit down and talk! Listen to me, listen. I just -- I just want you to think. Do you know what thinking is? It's just a fancy word for changing your mind.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 25 points 4 days ago (8 children)
[–] Saleh@feddit.org 13 points 4 days ago (15 children)

So far also Iran only matched target groups after Israel targeted them first. E.g. Israel strikes MoD offices in Tehran -> Iran strikes back at the MoD in Tel Aviv. Israels strikes Iranian gas and electrical infrastructure -> Iran strikes back at Israeli Gas and electrical infrastructure.

Iran doesn't want this war and keeps reiterating to go back to diplomacy, however the US and multiple G7 countries, especially UK, France and Germany are rattling the sabres more, defending Israels onslaught while condemning Irans responses. These countries claiming they would seek a diplomatic solution makes for rather cynical lies when they cover the attacker and condemn the defender.

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[–] redlemace@lemmy.world 26 points 4 days ago (1 children)
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[–] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 17 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Angry old men ... ruling the biggest countries in the world .. and all of them not caring what they are going to do or not do because they're going to be dead or senile or incapable to do anything within the next ten years.

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[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 15 points 4 days ago

Likewise, Iran must halt its retaliation immediately and drop its escalatory threats to attack US and UK bases.

Apparently defending yourself is the peak of insanity now.

[–] JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

Lol. What about the millions that got them into office in the first place? It's not a gender issue. It's a human nature one - acting out their insecurities by lashing out at the perceived enemy.

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