this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2025
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cross-posted from: https://beehaw.org/post/20989376

Where Soatok goes over why checklists are meaningless when trying to figure out if something is private or just for comparisons in general.

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[–] XLE@piefed.social 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm surprised this article doesn't mention privacytests.org by name, but it reaches a conclusion that may as well:

If you see a dumb checklist trying to convince you to use a specific app or product, assume some marketing asshole is trying to manipulate you. Don’t trust it.

Thankfully there's a good recommendation in the very next paragraph for all things (messaging apps, browsers, etc):

If you’re confronted with a checklist in the wild and want an alternative to share instead, Privacy Guides doesn’t attempt to create comparison tables for all of their recommendations within a given category of tool.

Also: shots fired at XMPP throughout, as the poor protocol limps along trying desperately to catch up to the encryption baseline that was set over a decade ago by the first versions of Signal.

Ultimately, both protocols are good. They’re certainly way better choices than OpenPGP, OMEMO, Olm, MTProto, etc.

Why OMEMO is "bad" is indirectly answered earlier:

The most important questions that actually matter to security:

  • Is end-to-end encryption turned on by default?
  • Can you (accidentally, maliciously) turn it off?

If the answers aren’t “yes” and “no”, respectively, your app belongs in the garbage. Do not pass Go.

Similar discussions have skewered the federated Delta Chat for having an even worse version of this issue.

[–] moonpiedumplings@programming.dev 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

If the answers aren’t “yes” and “no”, respectively, your app belongs in the garbage. Do not pass Go.

Please see my comment about this issue. Signal does not pass this test due to not having (working) reproducible builds.

[–] Sophocles 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

My lithsmus test for a good checklist is how they rate the Brave browser, Telegram, and popular VPNs. All three have marketed themselves as privacy friendly and secure, but all three are absolutely terrible if you do your homework on them. I've seen Brave or Telegram in the top tier on so many lists it isn't even funny

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org -1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Yeah, more tech and privacy enthusiasts should really look into things before declaring them secure or private. Even those that market themselves as such. Like, a lot of them hark on about SimpleX without really understanding that it's not a good choice.

[–] moonpiedumplings@programming.dev 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

So Soatok advocates for signal as pretty much the "gold standard" of e2ee apps, but it has a pretty big problem.

  1. Having signal be the distributor of the app, sorta breaks the threat model where you trust the app to encrypt data and hide it from the sever

  2. Signal is hostile to third parties packaging and distributing signal

The combination of these problems is supposed to be fixed with reproducible builds, where you can ensure that any user who builds the code will get the same binaries and outputs. Soatok mentions reproducible builds and the problems they solve on another blogpost

But signal's reproducible builds are broken.

The problem is that the answer to Soatok's second question "Can you accidentally/maliciously turn it off" is YES if you are using packages directly from the developer without signing to verify their identity and reproducible builds. They could put a backdoor in there, and you would have no way to tell. It's not fair to pretend that signal doesn't have that flaw, while dissing OMEMO

To understand why this is true, you only need check whether OMEMO is on by default (it isn’t), or whether OMEMO can be turned off even if your client supports it (it can)

(Although there is an argument to be made that having e2ee always on by default would minimize user error in improperly configuring it).

Now, I still think signal is a great software choice for many things. It's basically the best choice as a replacement to text messaging, universally.

But some people need something more secure than that, if you're seriously concerned about certain entities compromising the signal project, than you must have the ability to install clients from third party distributors and developers, even though they can have security issues, which Soatok notes in a post about Matrix (see the heading "Wasn’t libolm deprecated in May 2022?").

I thought the whole point of choosing Matrix over something like Signal is to be federated, and run your own third-party clients?

Yes Soatok. Depending on your threat model you may need to be able to choose from more than client implementation, even if all of them are trash except for 3. (Although I wouldn't recommend Matrix as a private messeger due to metadata like users/groups being public, but it's shaping up to be a great discord clone with PM feature. Is the crytography as secure as signals? No. But it checks the box of "Discord but doesn't sell my data" (yet ofc, Matrix is VC funded).).

Anyway, it's frustrating how he seems to have become more of a hardliner about this. It used to be that these were the bar to clear to become a signal competitor. Now these standards are the bar to clear to be recommended entirely (see the main section about "How do experts recommend secure messaging apps"), even though Signal itself doesn't clear them.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Very good and well thought out reply! Thanks so much!

I've been thinking about this for a very long time. The only platform that actually passes all of Soatok's tests is Simplex. But it's only briefly mentioned in the article about session

(For example: SimpleX was audited in December 2024. Don’t ask me about SimpleX, you have a goddamn report from professionals I respect right there.)

Wait no. I think only server builds are reproducible.

But there is an Android build on F-droid and F-droid does offer reproducible builds, so that's a way to get them.

A big problem, however, is that the creator of simplex is an antivaxxer, anti-DEI, anti-abortion, climate change denialist, etc. I can understand why people would be hesitant to push a platform like that, given they may also be pushing the creator's beliefs. I think it's okay to do the recommendation with a little asterisk of "please be aware that the creator of this app is crazy".

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Good catch, feel free to tell Soatok as all posts are repliable on fedi.

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Not my circus, not my monkey. 🙈

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So you just wanted to be a pedant for the sake of it?

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

If we don't gently remind each other to be better, who will? You?

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I don't count that as being better, heh. Being better is things like behaviour not some random spelling someone got 'wrong' that ultimately doesn't matter.

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Oh, my sweet summer child... 🤦🏼‍♂️

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What also tracks is you're a pedantic asshole that somehow thinks that correcting random posts on a forum, and not the original author because it's "Not my circus, not my monkey" (but it is yours to correct random internet posts, go figure) somehow makes you 'better' than others or others 'better' in some way when all it does is show how much of an asshole you are over things that ultimately do not matter and will not in any meaningful way change the world.

This isn't a fucking spelling competition, it's not an academic piece of work, it's not an exam, it's one fucking minor 'mistake' that, no really, doesn't matter and is just a reference to "Comparison is the thief of joy." Seriously, find something better to do with your obviously boundless free time, if you have so much of it you'd have the time to do this.

Instead of realising that language is about communication and as long as the original message comes across fine in non professional context then that's all that matters, you'd rather come into some random thread so you can be a smug asshole from afar.

Now either have something meaningful to say about the actual subject or get out.

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Don't forget to breathe, kiddo.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 2 weeks ago

LMAO, I'm probably older than you.