Ask Lemmy

"Guess I'll kill myself"

Agree with her. Then say all these old and retired people aren't contributing to the economy anymore and don't deserve to live. Then you ask her how old she is, for effect.

Other option, Louis Theroux that shit

Just don't react, but keep asking "why" type questions, again, just acting interested, like you think they could convince you if they're just explain it better.

Make them try to argue their own way into a hole until they're either so pissed off they drop it, or they start to disbelief their own thoughts.

It works cause you're not arguing against stupid that way, you're making stupid argue against itself, and nothing beats that

Jesus fucking christ mom. I would ask her to evaluate her contributions to society and really dissect if she ever did anything meaningful in the past or present. Then usher her towards the nearest woodchopper and let her know its time to serve a real purpose.

What "value" does she purport to bring? Just out of curiosity.

Try the classic (fully untrue, but who cares, it illustrates the point) quote about Einstein

Einstein failed his classes in high school, but by adulthood he was one of the smartest people in the world. People develop at different paces

She's got the "One for all" part right but she fails to see the flip side of that coin, "All for one". As far as laziness, it reminds me of an old joke I heard..."My parents took me to a doctor because they thought I had mononucleosis. It turns out I was just lazy.".

Hmph! We don't live to bring value to others! People have their own value, if you treat them like tools, you waste any productivity you generate!

my rebuttal would be to cut her entirely out of my life.

Ask her what "value" is.

"ok boomer"

There is no teaching those who have no interest in learning.

Why rebut it? You aren't going to use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get to. Especially someone that probably thinks you owe them your existence. You'll never win that argument, don't ask me how I know.

If you're still living at home, make it priority to determine a way to make it on your own ASAP, or be prepared to eat shit until you figure that out.

Your mom's a cunt.

This sounds like psychopathy (also a trait of borderline and narcissism, although there's an argument to be made that psychopaths are distinct from those).

I wouldn't expect a logic based rebuttal to work - all of these conditions are essentially emotional in nature, compensating for a negative past (shame) or compensating for a negative future (generalised anxiety).

This compensation is specifically grandiosity - a cognitive distortion to set themselves up as superior in their own minds, such that they no longer need to be ashamed or anxious.

Contempt is a manifestation of grandiosity, or more precisely a reaction to shame, transforming the realisation of their perceived inferiority in the past or future into the delusion of superiority.

"What the fuck is wrong with you??"

Ask your mother what societal value retirees provide, and then ask her where you should dump her once she retires.

Every time that philosophy has been implemented it has resulted in mass death and social collapse. Meanwhile when "useless" people are given tools and resources some of them wind up less useless.

Isaac Newton was probably autistic with bad enough social skills he was generally despised. Stephen Hawking had ALS. There are cultures who would have declared both of them useless and unfit for life. Hell Hellen Keller was an author and important political activist (cofounder of the ACLU) despite being deaf blind, because people gave her a chance and worked with her to learn a form of communication that worked for her.

Look her straight in the eye and say:

"You are embarrassing yourself."

Your mother is an ignorant person.

You mother had exactly one decision she got to make in regards to your life, and she already made it. She either needs to live with the consequences amd responsibilities of that decision, or learn to move on with her life.

It sounds harsh. But, if her love is based on how useful you are to her... Then that's not family, that's slavery.

That value is subjective, and that it sounds like her thinking of it as an objective metric makes her a horrible person.

Also, obligatory aside, seeing as this is the internet: I didn't fuck your mom. Nor would I; She sounds awful.

You don't need a therapist, she does. Sounds like she is suffering from EDD, aka Empathy Deficit Disorder. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-resilience/201004/are-you-suffering-from-empathy-deficit-disorder

That's some Little Red Book shit.

She's a fascist and a nazi because she puts ideologies above human life.

Apart from that, if "useless" people truly didn't have a purpose, then why did nature make them in the first place?

Apart from that, "value" is highly subjective. You can just define your own value and then live by that. Then you have "value".

Apart from that, my experience with these people is that they're ideologically inconsistent. They will follow the rules and think that the rules are a good thing universally, until these very same rules turn around to hurt them. Because they inevitably do. Suddenly, the rules are bullshit and should be abolished. It has happened to my mother. She was a die-hard nazi, saying things such as "useless eaters should be abolished" and "who doesn't work, doesn't deserve to eat" and stuff like that ... She also said that "self-sacrifice for the employer is a good thing, because in the end you will be rewarded" or sth ... she was laid off last year. It was beautiful to see how she slowly realized that hard work does not always pay off and that some employers are just assholes, and that it's not always people's own fault that they're unemployed ... she had a change of heart after that and is less adamant about her earlier ideology now. Sometimes, things still slip through, but she's less aggressive overall.

Your mom doesn't have enough value worth your time. You don't change hearts and minds like these. These kinds of people don't change until shit personally affects them, because your mom is an asshole.

Don't argue, she's obviously toxic. Leave her life. The furthest away you can. People who think like that just abuse and ruin others, and if you're at the point where you wonder whether she's using "special techniques" or smthg, it means she got to your mental health. See a therapist to mend what was broken, and get away from this toxic woman.

There have been some very helpful replies already so I'm just going to add this:

Imagine if your kids came to you and told you they were depressed (if you don't have kids, imagine you do and you love them very much).

Then imagine that -of all the things you could possibly say to them- you chose to tell them what your mother told you.

How would you feel about yourself as a parent (or even as a human being) if you did that? Essentially calling your own children worthless for being sick?

It's ok to feel that same way about your mother.

What's is your rebuttal for it?

Don't waste your time and energy on arguments with people who don't want to listen.

My rebuttal is that your mom's a bitch and there's no reason to pay attention to anything she says.

Who defines "valueless"? In my opinion, anyone who says something like that has no value and so...

"Value" is always relative. And it has nothing to do with depression or other mental health issues. As long as someone still has potential to be productive, then there's no exuse to say they don't deserve to live. Actually, if you objectively don't have potential to be productive, then you're such an outlier that you deserve to be cared for by others anyway. Everyone deserves to live.

So how is value relative to time and circumstance?

I have depression and ADHD.
People who see my work-in-progress stuff usually say "wow, you've worked really hard on this stuff for such a long time, this is amazing, I hope you have good luck finishing this stuff and world will see how great it is."
People who look at what I've finished usually say "you're a lazy b and you've contributed basically nothing to the society. What have you done last few years, anyway? Unbelievable."

By the way? This isn't exclusive to people with mental health things. Same thing happens to perfectly nominal people too. It doesn't matter how close you're to finishing some great work, someone's out there about to pull the rug from under you because they think you've not done enough. People get routinely absolutely screwed over by middle managers with completely arbitrary productivity metrics.

Eureka! That explains the hundreds of thousands of suicides!

"I hung myself to get out of work, to sleep, perchance to dream..."

What's her value?

value is subjective. start there. in an hour, you should be able to uncover either a latent Marxist, monarchist, or fascist.

She's utterly wrong. Take Robin Williams as an example: he was famous, rich, loved by everybody, stupendously funny. Still had depression. Still suffered.

It has nothing to do with people's "value" or their work ethic.

Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.

You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).

There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.

That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.

Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.

She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.

You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.

You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.

I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.

Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.

I don't think there is much to say to that, other than a genuine "I'm happy for you that you have never had to struggle with depression. I hope you stay healthy, I wouldn't wish this illness on anyone."

My best advice is, don't try to change your mom's mind. Instead, focus on your own beliefs, and find a way to accept that she isn't ready to do the same and may never be.

Some things that might help you:

1) Understand that criticism can be a form of love, especially from our parents

When people who love us criticise us, it's usually because they want us to improve. It's not just to make you feel bad. Instead the feelings of shame are intended to motivate you to do better because they want you to be the best version of yourself.

It's not effective, and it hurts, but it helps me to reframe criticism in that way. Ask yourself, who made the comment, and why do you think they did so? If it's someone you don't respect, ot you think just wanted to be nasty, ignore it. If it's someone that you believe cares about you, ask yourself whether it could be an inefficient expression of caring. If the latter, let go of the hurt as inefficient, and try to consider objectively whether they may have a point, and what (if anything) you can or want to do about it.

2) Create and live a definition of value that you believe to be true.

Sadly, modern society teaches that our worth is based on our productivity and our school / work success. It sounds as if your mom may have internalised this belief, and it's possible that a lot of her own self esteem relies on it. That's why it could be very difficult for her to let go of. You can though.

Ask yourself, who are the people in your life that you value, that you care about? Consider them one at a time and ask yourself why they matter to you. You will notice very quickly that your answers have nothing to do with their productivity or their success. It will be their kindness, their sense of humour, their reliability, the way a smile lights up their face, etc.

Then ask yourself, how well do I embody these characteristics that I value in others? Try to be true to your definition of value, and feel empathy for those people who believe the lie that only productivity enriches our society.

**3) Accept that depression creates a burden for the people around you and try to minimise it
**
It's not your fault that you're ill, but that doesn't make it any easier for the people around you. Mental illness is a reason for struggling with certain things, not an excuse to dump the burden on others.

The low energy of depression means you need to prioritise what you do. Some of it should be activities that make you feel better, like going into nature, keeping a gratitude journal, or phoning a friend. Some of it needs to be being a good friend, partner, and child. Figure out what the other person needs and how much you can do.

Why did your mom mention laziness? Was it frustration at something she expected from you that you aren't doing? Can you negotiate and agree lower expectations from her? A discussion to understand her priorities could help diffuse some of her frustration.

Hopefully something in this helped you. Good luck.

Why does your mom think she can decide who deserves to live?