this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2026
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Programming

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[–] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 4 points 53 minutes ago

Roman builders were masters of concrete. That was how they built enormous structures like the Colosseum. They even had a special type of concrete for harbors, that would form a chemical reaction with sea water, and create an underwater concrete so hard that it's still in use.

Then Rome slowly collapsed, and the secrets of concrete were lost, and weren't rediscovered until centuries later. Scientists just figured out the thing with the sea water concrete a few years ago, but they still don't know the formula.

History is riddled with lost and rediscovered stuff.

[–] Feyd@programming.dev 53 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

There is a fundamental difference this post is pretending doesn't exist.

Trusting the abstractions of compilers and fundamental widely used libraries is not a problem because they are deterministic and battle tested.

LLMs do not add a layer of abstraction. They produce code at the existing layer of abstraction.

[–] tyler@programming.dev 29 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

they're also not equivalent because LLMs pretense is to remove the human from the equation, essentially saying that we don't need that knowledge anymore. But people still do have that knowledge. Those telephone systems still work because someone knows how each part works. That will never be true for an LLM.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 10 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Those telephone systems still work because someone knows how each part works.

I'm more than confident that - if you actually went down to AT&T HQ and really dug into the weeds - you'd find blind spots in the network created by people leaving the company and failing to back-fill their expertise. Or people who incorrectly documented this or that, forcing their coworkers to rediscover the error the hard way.

I think we do underestimate how many systems are patched over, lost in the weeds, or fully reinvented (by accident or as a necessary replacement) because somebody in the chain of knowledge was never retained or properly replaced.

I would be very dubious of the theory that anyone at AT&T could recreate their system network from the 1980s, without relying on all the modernizations and digitized efficiencies, for instance. No way in hell they could reproduce the system from the 1940s, because all that old hardware (nevermind the personal) has been rendered obsolete ages ago. But I'm sure there are still lines in the ground that were laid decades ago that are still in use. Possibly lines that they've totally lost track of and simply know exist because the system hasn't failed yet.

[–] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

But that's the strength of society to begin with, no one person knows how any given complex system works because its impossible for one person to know, we come together in specialised groups to create these systems over time with the collective knoweldge of many people.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

Idk if I'd call it a "strength". Feels more like a weakness.

But sure. This is the reason bureaucracies exist. Knowledge accrual, organization of specialties, long term investment planning, and distribution of surplus... as critical today as it was 8,000 years ago.

[–] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

I mean the alternative is to be like octopi, intelligent but forever stuck in the beginning of the stone age due to a lack of ability to aggregate and accumulate knoweldge over time.

[–] Kage520@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Agree that it weakens certain things, but I don't see how we can overcome that. It's great to have a knowledgeable GP as your doctor, but their breadth of knowledge causes them to fail at a deep knowledge of specific disease states. So he might be able to determine you have cancer, which then causes him to send you to an oncologist who specializes in that area.

Basically, there is a limit to the volume of information a human can hold. This was partially what AI advertised it could help overcome, but it's so much worse than expected. If we could somehow increase the volume of information a human could hold and process, you'd be in much better shape for those doctor visits that end in "well, I guess this symptom is just you getting older" when really it's SOMETHING but the doctor completely lacks the knowledge of that area.

[–] TipRing@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

You would be largely correct. Though I was kind of amused with the "Does anyone know how their telephone works?" ca.1994 and then listed a bunch of things that I very much know. So maybe a bad example.

[–] Satellaview@lemmy.zip 26 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

True, but my compiler isn’t demanding a $200/month subscription from me.

[–] panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 hours ago (1 children)
[–] brian@programming.dev 3 points 1 hour ago

some still do. you're spending the same amount if you still need Delphi in current year for instance

[–] xep@discuss.online 10 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Compiling code to machine instructions is deterministic. That's not the case with LLMs.

[–] Kissaki@programming.dev 1 points 1 hour ago

abstracting away determinism /s

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

I remember talking to Brendan Gregg about how he conducted technical interviews, back when we both worked at Netflix. He told me that he was interested in identifying the limits of a candidate’s knowledge, and how they reacted when they reached that limit. So, he’d keep asking deeper questions about their area of knowledge until they reached a point where they didn’t know anymore. And then he’d see whether they would actually admit “I don’t know the answer to that”, or whether they would bluff. He knew that nobody understood the system all of the way down.

I think this is the nut of building out a skilled development team. You need different people at different levels who know their area of expertise well and who are willing to admit where it ends, such that they can reach out to the next guy to step in and assist.

But also, you need the Full Code Stack as it were. Or, at least, you need a way to know where your blind spots are and understand the limit of your capacity. Otherwise, you run the risk of an "innovator" asking why they can't just dump canola oil into their gas tank or how come you can't just use hydrogen instead of helium for your balloon. And worse - plowing ahead because nobody outside of their cubicle stepped in to stop them.

You run the risk of destroying a lot of your own hard work - and possibly a lot of other people's hard work - because you didn't realize your own limits or know where to go to exceed them.

[–] wccrawford@discuss.online 0 points 1 hour ago

As a senior developer, I use the new AIs. They're absolutely amazing and a huge timesaver if you use them well. As with any powerful tool, it's possible to over-use and under-use it, and not achieve those gains.

However, I disagree with the comparison to knowing how hardware works. There's a pretty big difference between these 2 things:

Letting a company else design and maintain the hardware or a library and not understanding the internals yourself.

Letting a someone/something design and implement a core part of your code that you are responsible for maintaining, and not understanding how it works yourself.

I am not responsible for maintaining ReactJS or my Intel CPU. Not understanding it means there might be some performance lost.

I am responsible for the product my company produces. All of our code needs to be understood in-house. You can outsource creation of it, or have an LLM do it, but the company needs to understand it internally.

[–] higgsboson@piefed.social 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Author should probably read "I, Pencil"