Actually Infuriating
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The moral of this story is to not pay for proton for email usage.
I mean, what's the alternative here? The Swiss government, which they are subject to, issued a legal warrant. Any email provider you want to use will be subject to warrants. All of them.
They are technically incapable by design of complying with warrants for email data. In this case they were able to provide personally identifying payment data because the person paid for their account with... a credit card. They offer crypto payment options, and would not have been able to usefully comply had the person used that method.
The alternative is literally a single sentence: "That person paid by crypto, we have no payment details on file for them."
I get the sentiment, but no serious company is going to survive for very long lying to its government when it receives search warrants. This is not a realistic solution.
Mailfence has no idea who I am.
Tuta never got any payment info outta me, though I do use them for official things tied to my actual id... but only those things, not other things.
???
The alternative is to use an alternative.
They are technically incapable by design of complying with warrants for email data.
Fucking obviously not, this is far from the first time something like this happened.
They could, you know, design the services they offer such that they are actually incapable of complying with warrants, by design.
Payment info is the easiest, most direct way to identify a person, beyond uploading your actual government ID.
Maybe, maybe Proton should stop acting like that is not fucking obviously the case, maybe they should make it more clear that if your threat model includes, I dunno, a terroristic theocratic fascist government, their currently existing marketing is extremely misleading to tech-normies?
If you pay for mailfence with card, they know who you are.
Also, I'm pretty sure that proton do not have unencrypted email contents of their users. That's why they can't offer IMAP like everyone else does (you can't connect your email client directly to proton, you need an extra app).
Also, I think that proton's marketing is pretty in-line with what they actually offer. Protection from e.g. data breaches should be quite good and I think it's reasonable to primarily market to people who are not directly targeted by the US government.
Who pays for mailfence?
Why would you?
I think it's reasonable to primarily market to people who are not directly targeted by the US government.
Then you're either an idiot or are somehow blissfully ignorant of everything related to Peter Thiel and Palantir.
~~helped FBI~~ adhered to Swiss legal requirements
Are you guys expecting companies to break the laws of their own countries on your behalf?
Nah, just expecting honest, straightforward marketing.
Here's an example:
Hey we do E2EE and shit, but if you pay us for it, and the US government gets mad at you, we'll fuck you.
There, see?
Honest, simple.
So, from your perspective, all companies should include, in their marketing campaigns, that they wont break the law for you? lol
When their marketing is based on privacy, they need to be honest that they're not going to be private.
I recall other companies using "canaries" to help their customers know that they had been compromised by the government but were legally not allowed to talk about it.
They’ve never had a true Warrant Canary. They have however always posted an annual Transparency Report on their blog. Where they reference they abide by Swiss Law. https://proton.me/legal/transparency
*abide
FFS
Basically all they did was provide the credit card information because that's the only information they had saved. It's not like they just gave them his email or something like that. It's one of the biggest reasons they let you use crypto to pay for your subscription.
For thoroughness' sake, here are all of Proton's payment methods.
They accept:
- Debit/credit
- PayPal
- Google Pay
- Bitcoin
- Cash (mailed)
- Bank transfer
If I were making an email address for a group allegedly connected to "arson, vandalism and doxing", I would've definitely gone with Bitcoin. The fact that all PM were able to do in the face of Swiss authorities acting at the behest of the FBI was connect the email address to the payment source – and that this one piece of information was easily preventable by the activist – is an endorsement to me.
Bitcoin is not anonymous. If you went with Bitcoin, they could trace all the transactions from the time it was minted. If they can get back to a known address, they can very likely trace it forward to you.
On this list of payment methods, mailed cash is probably the most anonymous. They may theoretically be able to trace it back to your general region, but it would be difficult.
You can launder Bitcoin, and you can use unaffiliated bitcoin wallets.
I have a couple wallets that I've only ever accessed with VPN, and I can buy anonymous coins on one, transfer anonymously to the other, then swap for another type of coin and spend from there.
There are some gas fees and conversion costs, but vs jail I'd happily pay them.
You can launder, but the nature of the block chain is that all transactions are public and permanent. If your laundry service is compromised two years from now, the transaction you conduct today is also compromised.
arson, vandalism and doxing
Wiki guy doesn't believe in the Oxford comma, you disgust me
Hahaha, fuck; you caught me. I copy–pasted that directly from the 404 article with no revisions. Funnily enough, Wikipedia's Manual of Style imposes no requirement for usage of serial ("Oxford") commas; it only requires intra-article consistency. However, like you clearly surmised, most experienced editors seem to prefer serial commas.
no, must raise the pitchforks cuz reasons!
its like people are just out to find a reason to hate proton
Between the CEO using the official social account to celebrate Trump's re-election, their hard and unwanted pivot to being all about AI, and now knowing that there's really nothing stopping them from handing over my info to the FBI anyway, I'm not really struggling to find a reason tbh
CEO using the official social account to celebrate Trump's re-election
The tweet, from Dec. 2024, was celebrating that Trump nominated Gail Slater. It wasn't celebrating Trump's reelection, unless you know of some other tweet?
I mean... There's a lot more in that tweet than just celebrating a specific nomination. You seem to be specifically ignoring the majority of the post for whatever reason.
Great pick by @realDonaldTrump. 10 years ago, Republicans were the party of big business and Dems stood for the little guys, but today the tables have completely turned. People forget that the current antitrust actions against Big Tech were started under the first Trump admin.
One of the big issues the tweet specifically mentions is a fucking lie. Neither major party gives a shit about the little guys anymore. And the Trump admin most definitely has not been a supporter of antitrust actions against big tech, unless you consider political attacks as antitrust.
It definitely reads as an attempt to suck Trump's dick as opposed to just agreeing with a decision.
I mean... There's a lot more in that tweet than just celebrating a specific nomination. You seem to be specifically ignoring the majority of the post for whatever reason.
I wasn't sharing my opinion on the CEO's post as a whole, just correcting the misinformation that PP_BOY_ posted.
I provided a link to the CEO's post so anyone (like you) could get the full context.
For me, there's a huge difference between supporting Trump's reelection and supporting the nomination of someone who the CEO believes (even incorrectly) will promote antitrust regulation.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that both parties have in many ways prioritized the interests of big tech over the citizens they're supposed to serve. Moreover, I believe Democrats have been much better champions of things that favor consumers, such as Net Neutrality. Trump's administration gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) for heaven's sake.
Obviously, I disagree with the CEO's take in his tweet. But that's no reason to allow misinformation to spread. I'd much rather everyone see the tweet and form their own opinions.
As a proton customer, I share this sentiment.... (Exasperated Siiiiiigggghhhh)
Canceling my subscription tonight. All their apps were neat conveniences for me, but I'll live without it. I've fortunately got cold copies of all my files on Drive already, but this is awful to see
Yeah I don't have the time to do that right now, but it's mullvad and time to learn self-hosting for me.
I've been using Mullvad even with Proton VPN the whole time, anyway. It's a great provider. Also need to learn how to self host
I use Posteo. They're green and pretty solid from everything I'm aware of.
I've gone down this rabbit hole, and it's just not possible to host your own email without getting filtered out and having a lot of non-delivered emails from your address. It improves over time if you have a static email and IP, but it will never be zero failure.
Cancelled this shit over a year ago at this point. Very glad I left. Fuck Proton.
Oh, proton caved to government warrant? ./mild shock
Idiots expect them to pay salaries while ignoring government suppeona 🤦♂️. I was screeched at on a banned account.
Not surprising given Proton Mail is owned by a far right Trump supporter.
Boooooooo