this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2023
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184
Toyota trials hydrogen-powered vehicle on public roads in Australia (japantoday.com)
submitted 2 years ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[–] 18107@aussie.zone 33 points 2 years ago (5 children)

A hydrogen engine is so much worse for efficiency than a hydrogen fuel cell, and even that is not good compared to batteries. I'd estimate the round trip efficiency of a hydrogen engine to be about 10-15%. So for the same energy that could be used to drive a battery EV 100km, this car from Toyota could drive 12km.

Additionally, hydrogen is not very energy dense per volume. A compressed hydrogen tank that replaces the boot/trunk of the car would have enough hydrogen for about 100km of range.

Please let me know if I'm wrong about any of these numbers. For Toyota's sake, I really hope I'm wrong.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Your numbers are way off. No manufacture would even think about touching hydrogen ICE motors if they only got 10-15% efficiency.

[–] weew@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

no manufacturer except one that's still desperately trying to push for a hydrogen economy because they invested too much into hydrogen production

[–] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 1 points 2 years ago

Is that what they're doing by releasing one vehicle in a couple of US states and now another in a different country? I think your take is pretty extreme.

For decades, they had been one of the only companies to electrify their vehicles with numerous hybrid options. There doesn't have to be only one single alternative to ICE engines. We can build and develop multiple things in unison.

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[–] KpntAutismus@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/

according to this website, hydrogen ICEs are very inefficient. same with fuel cell vehicles. the main losses come from converting the hydrogen into and out of electricity. but if said electicity is generated in abundance with renewable energy at a cheap price, this could really be something.

edit: you can't really burn electricity, so as a car enthusiast i really hope hydrogen ICEs become a thing.

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

BEVs are a lot of fun to drive. Car people are nostalgic for burning fuels and roaring engines, but future generations will be far less so. We just need far lighter batteries.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Lighter batteries, lower costs, quicker charging and way longer range under load. Hydrogen is the way forward. I don't understand why there is so much push back from the EV crowd. EVs are great for city driving, but are terrible for long range and heavy load equipment.

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[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The issue with this metric is they're talking about energy used to get the power. It completely ignores the fact that hydrogen can already be pulled from the atmosphere using solar plants. There are a few companies out there now that are developing stations that are basically automated.

The ICE motors Toyota and Hyundai have shown, have very little loss of HP/Tq numbers from their gas counter parts. Unless the battery industry comes up with a super light, quick charging (5 mins) and long lasting battery, EV will be resigned to the city at best and no heavy workloads for it either.

[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Efficiency still matters significantly with hydrogen solar panels, because solar panels aren't free.

Suppose solar to wheel is 60% efficient in a battery electric vehicle, but 30% efficient in a hydrogen vehicle. You need half as many solar panels to power the battery electric vehicle, and spend at most half as much to charge it. That matters.

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[–] jose1324@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

Well. Basically no one except for dumbass boomer executives forcing the company in a direction. Like Toyota.

[–] PeterPoopshit@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I thought they were using ammonia powered vehicles and calling them hydrogen just because ammonia contains hydrogen. Wasn't there a bunch of hype a few months ago about Toyota inventing an ammonia internal combustion engine that was so efficient it would "make electric cars obsolete"? The article just mentioned liquid hydrogen though. So I don't know what to believe anymore.

[–] Geobloke@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think the biggest thing that people forgot in the efficiency debate is cost. What will hydrogen actually cost to go 100km compared to electricity

[–] 18107@aussie.zone 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The current cost to drive a car with green hydrogen from electrolysis (not blue or grey hydrogen from methane reforming) is roughly equivalent to $50/L (AUD) for petrol, or $120/Gal (USD) for gas. This is one of the reasons most hydrogen today is made from fossil fuels.

[–] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 years ago

and you have to use it up within a week or two, or your fuel disappears

[–] wooki@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

And yet here we are breaking new ground with brand new (within the year) solid hydrogen projects.

The alternative is the slow charging and short life high cost lithium battery. We need better and efficiency matters not when it’s being pulled from the air in huge stand alone stations now being built.

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 1 points 2 years ago

The alternative is the slow charging and short life high cost lithium battery.

I've seen nothing suggesting a short life. Solid state batteries also should result in short charging times

[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago (16 children)

Why hydrogen? Why not electric at this point?

[–] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Because Toyota invested a lot into hydrogen instead of EV, and they need to recuperate at least some of it.

[–] Kushia@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Honestly I'm glad that somebody is exploring other environmentally friendly alternatives too, nothing wrong with having options.

[–] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Kind of? Hydrogen can be environmentally friendly, but EVs have big advantages:

  • Creating and burning hydrogen is way less efficient than EVs (almost an order of magnitude)
  • Hydrogen is much cheaper to create in environmentally unfriendly ways (using natural gas etc.)
  • Unless we have massive overproduction of power, the additional energy can be better used to de-carbonify other processes with larger impact
[–] xenspidey@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's why generating hydrogen during off-peak hours from a nuclear power plant will be very beneficial. It may be less efficient but way better for the environment then lithium

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[–] Geobloke@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

They've invested heavily into a partnership with Panasonic to build solid state batteries too . They hand just spread their risk

[–] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

While most car companies initially believed liion batteries isnt ready for the market, and wanted to wait for a more safe and dense battery tech to hit market (solid state battery), toyota invested in hydrogen. Then Tesla took the bullet and sort of went against thr grain and created the liion based evs, and the rest of the companies are scrambling to catch up due to the demand for them.

Any push for hydrogen is because toyota invested into it and doesnt want for it to go to waste.

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[–] ours@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Because some companies just can't get rid of the idea of ICEs. And they don't like that their expertise in making high-quality ICEs doesn't give them much benefit in making electric cars. So they prefer hydrogen to win over electric otherwise they'll have a very hard time competing against newcomers.

In my opinion, it's dinosaurs clinging to their old ways while the asteroid looms large in the sky.

[–] Destraight@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If there is an asteroid in the sky then everyone dies. Not just the "dinosaurs". This is not a good analogy

[–] ours@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Us mammals did pretty well all things considered.

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[–] chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (8 children)

Hydrogen fuel cells or engines are a useless joke. Toyota REALLY needs to be thinking more about power generation with Hydrogen and then electric cars so that their vehicle production can be universal across the world. Electricity is the most versatile form of energy and can be produced using lots of natural resources. I get it.....Japan has limited natural resources and the seawater around them is abundant (thus hydrogen), but the hydrogen vehicle makes zero sense literally anywhere else in the world and you're a GLOBAL COMPANY Toyota.

Also with all of the saltwater around them you'd think they'd be working on sodium-ion battery technology and how to utilize the salt they extract during the hydrogen production to be used in batteries, but no.....keep making ICE engines for some stupid reason. FFS Toyota.

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[–] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 2 years ago

a hydrogen engine is a useless joke.

[–] Destraight@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

Hell yeah let's see them in America too

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