this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
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Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers

“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.

When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”

Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.

But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”

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[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 170 points 1 year ago (16 children)

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,”

The same could be said about "communism" and "socialism". The words have been turned dirty, such that people shy away from what is objectively a good thing when done honestly and to the letter of the principle.

[–] FenrirIII@lemmy.world 99 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Kind of like Critical Race Theory. If properly understood and applied, people would benefit from the knowledge and empathy.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Pretty much exactly the same, except CRT got knocked down before it even had established itself as a positive thing.

[–] Pips@lemmy.sdf.org 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It was already established. It's just a theoretical framework in various social studies. It was deliberately bastardized by the right as they were seeking something to hate. It wasn't even in the public consciousness, just something academics used and that get taught in some higher ed classes. It's a very useful framework but it's not something that you'd actually teach a kid.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It was an academic term for a relatively short period, it was never established in common language - not in the same way that socialism and communism were.

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[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I bought the actual book because it was on sale and because I thought it would be hilarious to put out on my coffee table for when my conservative dad came to visit my house. I also figured I'd try to read it, because I should be informed about what it is so that I can argue for it, right?

Holy shit, it's a lot of dense legal theory. I knew it was graduate material, but the book is a collection some of the most complex ideas, studies, and legal theory that I've ever read. I'm not going to lie that I won't even make it a third of the way through it.

Anyone who argues that CRT is being taught in elementary schools and is being used to brainwash children hasn't seen how high-level the material actually is and has no idea what they're talking about.

In reality, the material is not that controversial. What I have read of it has been quite unbiased.

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[–] eskimofry@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Funnily, Capitalism could work too but I don't expect billionaires to be honest or have any principles apart from hoarding for themselves.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I mean you could also say that Capitalism is a dirty word in some circles. And yet, it addresses many of the aspects of trade, which are needed through all societal systems.

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[–] quindraco@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Granted, Lemmy is a relatively safe place to do it, but bold move, walking out into public and describing Communism as "objectively good".

[–] Chuymatt@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It is a wonderfully good idea. Except for one tiny, insignificant variable. Humans. Humans ruin it every time.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Communism is a very decent idea. It's the transition to it that always tends to be spoiled by incumbant powers. Writers of Communist theory recognised this somewhat, and their solution was to have a violent revolution that would hopefully come end with the new system they devised. Now, however, the word is basically lost - there are/have been too many "Communist" countries that don't really operate in that manner, with too many people that have suffered under that name.

Socialism doesn't have quite the same level of stigma, but still a good deal. However, when you think about it, a significant portion of any government is "Socialist" - we pay taxes, our taxes fund roads, schools and various other social services. Socialism, or more specifically socialist policy, is that which benefits society as a whole rather than any specific group. When you see it like that, it's hard to paint it as a bad thing, not without being completely selfish that you or your group aren't getting an exclusive benefit.

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[–] eltrain123@lemmy.world 112 points 1 year ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)
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[–] Candelestine@lemmy.world 111 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If you don't want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.

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[–] CliveRosfield@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

People hyperfocus on the 1% of crazy feminists instead of the other 99% who are actually normal and reasonable. Sadly that 1% are doing more harm to the public image of feminism than good.

We live in an age of twitter screenshot outrage and that pathetically emboldens some peoples beliefs so the root cause really is social media. Nothing more nothing less.

[–] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

The only time I ever hear about that 1% is from the conservative propaganda machine, or MSM rebuttal. They hold zero power outside of the conservative cinematic universe.

At this point I consider it nothing more than manufactured outrage.

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 55 points 1 year ago (23 children)

I actually agree.... We simply ignore the needs of men who are suffering. When was the last time you read a story about a male domestic abuse victim who WASN'T laughed at.

[–] FrankTheHealer@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Or like how Google has a doodle for international women's day but never international men's day. Not to be dismissive or insensitive to women's issues, but I've seen boys and young men talk about how little things like that give them the impression that their thoughts and feelings are not valid.

There are ofc men's issues still like how the overwhelming majority workplaces deaths are men or how more men die from suicide than women. Men are more likely to be homeless than women etc

The sexes are supposed to compliment one another. Not compete against one another. We can acknowledge that there are issues for both sides while still being sensitive and respectful.

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I think there's a lesson in there about teaching people that weren't around for the formation of a movement about why targeted movements exist.

It's not just with kids but with people that are tuned out... I think too many people fall through the cracks into white power, toxic masculinity, incel groups, etc because on the surface the questions are of course...

"well why don't I have a support group for X? what makes that group of people special? why do they get their own day?"

Like yeah, if nobody's ever explained what women have historically faced to you, feminism and girl power are especially strange concepts to confront.

Maybe having a more positive masculinity movement actually wouldn't be a bad idea just to help people that are feeling a little lost and prevent them from finding "answers" in the wrong places(?)

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[–] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's more to then even that. Fight Club predicted it. Mass media pushing this expectation onto young boys, but then as teenager and young adults, they have no outlet for machoism. No wood to split, no animals to kill for food, no fascists to kill(yet). Hollywood pushes the Action Hero, and neglects the Science Hero and the Guile Hero.

BTW, isn't it sad that the stand-in for toxic masculinity in fiction is still more positive then real life toxic masculinity symbols. But fiction has to be believable.

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[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 53 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As a (formerly young) man myself, I can say with experience that boys are gullible. If something just had a veneer of plausibility, then that was good enough for me!

Still, this hit hard, because it’s so true:

He says [about boys]: “It’s not showing that emotional weakness. It’s also the expectation to always be right. Like you are not able to show that you can fail; that there’s more shame in doing something and making a mistake than there is just sort of sitting it out or dropping out.”

He stresses that many of the men he deals with have positive attitudes to women and feminism, but he says some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions.

I faced a lot of pressure to be “tough” and “perfect” (I’m not sure where that pressure came from. My parents weren’t the problem). I also misunderstood that feminism only means fairness and equality. “Fortunately”, I was trying to control an anger management issue, and I only recently realized that the experience had the side effect of teaching me that imperfections are normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Being fair was, well, only fair, so although I didn’t notice it, I never had an issue with basic feminism. I didn’t know much about it, but I wasn’t against it, and recognized that guys who were proudly anti-feminist were almost always jerks that I didn’t want to emulate.

[–] BananaTrifleViolin@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think a lot of it comes from schools, and in particular physical education and competitive sports. There is nothing wrong with competitive sports but the attitudes around it in schools can be so toxic, and in particular it can be used to create hierarchies. The idea of being good at sports and that being masculine was something I certainly experienced a lot at school. Also people who weren't as academic but thrived in sports were lauded.

My school had various sports teams and clubs, and fuck all academic activities. Sports aren't toxic but the attitudes around them can be, and particularly adults who feed in toxic attitudes and values around it.

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[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I also blame CBC and other supposedly legit sources for giving this fuck air time and even asking him about the Israel/Palestine war as if his opinion matters.

Also so called journalists like this who remove all responsibility from Tate for being a rapist piece of shit

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[–] AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I feel like a lot of people confuse feminism for straight up misandry. #killallmen? #maletears? These were started by so called "feminists" but this is the definition of misandry.

And people wonder why young men don't like feminism when this might have been their only exposure to it.

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[–] badaboomxx@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I really think that tate is an imbecil, and his fanbase are just being manipulated.

It is sad to see that boys think that this idiot is someone who deserve attention.

[–] SchizoDenji@lemm.ee 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think slacktivist corporate feminism is an easy punching bag which makes it an easy case to dismiss the message.

That and with internet allowing every village idiot a voice, it is very easy for someone to say something incredibly batshit insane which becomes a punching bag for the rest of the people.

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[–] yeah@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (14 children)

If men and boys are finding current models of masculinity to be difficult - which is what Tate et al prey on - perhaps they have more in common with feminists. The patriarchy harms everyone.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's actually not all that difficult to respect women. Which will work well in 99% of scenarios.

The other 1% are interactions on the internet which has a tendency to magnify the weirdos. The "you gotta do this and this and this to even go on a date with me" types are internet weirdos. Most women aren't actually like that. But it's the internet, so a woman saying "just respect me as a person, and we're cool" isn't going to gain traction in the algorithms.

So guys like Andrew Tate are weirdos that gain traction as a reaction to the the other weirdos.

Go outside, touch grass, respect women as people, and everything will be alright.

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[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you cannot name, let alone quote, a single piece of feminist literature, are you really against feminism, or are you just railing against your own fucked up projections?

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[–] avater@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it really that hard not to be a fucking cunt?

[–] RedAggroBest@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

For a teenager, yes. That's why this is important.

[–] Minotaur@lemm.ee 30 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.

When I went to high school in the early 2010s there was this huge movement of like… positivity and sunshine and wellness and feminism and good times for all. Bob Ross was on everyone’s mind and Pharrell’s “Happy” blasted on the stereo, people wore really bright and mismatched and often gaudy outfits.

This was seemingly “in response” to that mid 2000s emo/grunge/depressed aesthetic which was very dark and moody. And now, in response to that 2010s positivity we seem to get this really jaded, “actually, feminism sucks and becoming a ‘trad catholic’ is chic” movement.

It’s annoying, and I’m sure we’ll see an opposite shift again in 5 years.

[–] LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.

That implies that it's somehow a natural cycle, but this is dangerous because it ignores and "Laissez-faire" the fascist propaganda that is blasted deliberately into our global society. It started with fox news and talk radio where funding from fascists helped spread "misinformation" and now continues on social media, where the same funding takes place. The strategy behind this funding is that fascism works when socio-economic circumstances get worse and worse, and allow further exploitation.

Additionally, controversial viewpoints are rewarded by more engagement and clicks - and so become part of the strategy of AI algorithms.

You should absolutely not assume it gets better on it's own, without enough people pushing back against it and without the rules of how the system is allowed to work being changed. Gen Z is just as susceptible to propaganda as Boomers.

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[–] sagrotan@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (8 children)

A big problem - for ages now - is, that young men just don't have fathers. There's a male around, often, but these are rarely "fathers" that convey a whole picture of a male person. I grew up without one, and I can tell you, how confusing that can be. You attach yourself very easily to ideas other male persons have. Thinking for yourself is another skill that's kinda rare, not only today, it was at any time. It's hard to navigate these years.

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[–] khepri@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Andrew Tate himself is absolutely a problem, that doesn't preclude there from also being other, related, broader, problems. Usually, when you see an argument in the form of "X thing (small, defined, addressable) isn't the problem, Y thing (large, nebulous, intractable) is the problem!" Then what is happening is someone is re-framing the debate from a cognizable issue to an unsolvable issue, to defuse any actual action. It's a great tactic!

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[–] angelsomething@lemmy.one 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This shit stain can be both.

[–] SanndyTheManndy@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lack of actually good and well-known male role models leads to scum filling the vacuum. Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame. Doesn't look like it's gonna fix itself anytime soon though.

[–] constnt@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (23 children)

Role models

Boys traditionally are taught from a very young age that uncompromising, and 'unfeeling' toxic males are what we need to look up to. So that's what they gravitate towards. It's a whole other discussion about unburdening and unpacking toxic views in men that is the core issue actually at play.

Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame.

Women pushing for equal rights isn't to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It's not girls' fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.

Doesn't look like it's gonna fix itself anytime soon though.

Social inequality is never going to fix itself. There isn't a single issue in the world that is going to just fix itself.

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[–] Suavevillain@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Most things come down to people don't want to unlearn things. Con-men like Tate pick up on that empty void for young men since there isn't much guidance and lead them down the wrong path. It isn't the end of the world to learn the way you're brought up thinking may have been bad or harmful, and do better in the future.

[–] SnipingNinja@slrpnk.net 11 points 1 year ago

Sometimes the symptom can also be the thing exacerbating the problem and much worse of an issue than the root problem

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