PhilipTheBucket

Fair enough. Here's one that talks about Biden's policies and impacts a little more specifically:

https://archive.is/20240419210514/https://www.vox.com/24134257/biden-economy-inflation-wages-interest-rate

All of it? No. But a significant portion? Yes.

So what I'm talking about is things like setting it up so UniversalMonk gets to stay around for far longer than the community feels he should be, and then people are getting mod sanctions for getting in slapfights with him. That's a much bigger problem than just one mod being a dickhead in some kind of user interaction. My impression, and maybe I'm wrong, is that Jordan didn't set the policy in that case, he was just the face of putting it into practice. Honestly maybe I'm wrong in that. But I do feel like for a community of the size of lemmy.world, we should be able to find out specifically who is responsible for decisions like that, and be able to talk with them. Whether or not Jordan is around, there's still a massive problem in the moderation if decisions like that can kind of drift into codification silently, without anyone really being the one who decides to try to justify it.

You're saying that Jordan decided all on his own to step forward and justify it, which is on him, which is 100% fair also, and I agree on that score. Also, him being a dickhead in user interactions sometimes is still a problem, regardless of anything else that's going on.

(Honestly in general I just don't think that the "lords and peasants" model of moderators vs. ordinary users is a good one, I think a lot of issues like this are pretty inevitable under that model. I actually like Bluesky's user-driven and voluntary moderation model much better. But that is a separate discussion.)

Moreover, he's the face of a lot of this moderation

He brings himself into the threads and argues with everyone insisting that what he did was right. He both admits to his behavior and doubles down constantly.

Yeah. Not being able to admit error is a really bad trait in someone with a lot of responsibility. That's not his only sin but it is a big one.

All I'm saying is that I think there is moderation on lemmy.world that is openly malicious, from a clique of moderators whose names you hear much less often, and I've observed on Reddit this process of sort of knocking out moderators who are guilty of something-or-other to pave the way for the quietly malicious moderation. I've seen it happen on Lemmy to a couple of moderators who I liked a lot more than I like Jordan. I think looking at the whole picture and what the end state is going to be is valuable here, whether or not that picture includes Jordan specifically.

So we should not remove an abusive moderator because good moderators are going to not want to join because they're going to worry about being kicked out but it somehow makes it easier for more abusive mods?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I don't really have an opinion on removing Jordan. I'm just offering my agreement with you that his judgement and way of interacting are often pretty bad. That's the factual basis, and then what people do after that can be up to their decision.

Mostly what I'm trying to add to that is that I think keeping in mind the end state and what we do want things to look like is a good idea. That can help with taking the factual basis into a concrete decision... it's sometimes not a good idea to jump from "this person is objectively a problem in these specific ways" to "get rid of this person and things will be better" without modeling out what the future state is going to be and specifically what a good solution would look like.

I think most of the real (inflation adjusted) wage gains for working class were due to bipartisan covid relief money

Incorrect, this was a lot more what caused it. Covid relief money stopped in September 2021, and its overall impact (in pretty much every country across the globe) was a massive spike in inflation as an after-effect. The US under Biden recovered from it better than pretty much any country in the world.

I am sort of of two minds about this. I really dislike this type of expansive witch hunt against some particular big name mod which is a frequent Lemmy occurrence (which for some reason always includes the accusation that they're a "Zionist" whether or not it is true). I've stuck up for JordanLund in the past. However, I will say that I think his judgement as a mod and style of interpersonal interaction on Lemmy is really bad. This list includes a bunch of pretty fair examples, you can actually see a brief conversation between me and him in one of them which goes about the way that a lot of conversations with him go. Thanks to Stamets for doing all the homework to dig up detailed examples and discuss them, it's clear you put a ton of sincere factual effort into putting this together.

I think a vital question is what the moderation on the big lemmy.world communities should look like. My impression is that there is some significant fuckery afoot (a distinct tendency to deliberately run cover for troll/propaganda accounts for example), and I don't really think Jordan is behind it, although there is a habit of shoving him to the front to take the blame for it when it happens. I feel like there's going to be kind of a shortage of people willing to go through the daily struggle and effort of being a mod of a super-busy community, which not only makes it hard for the mods to take time and patience to make great decisions 100% of the time, but also opens the door for people who are motivated to abuse the position and makes it harder to justify getting rid of them once they're in place.

Everyone knows if the Democrats in this committee weren't a bunch of fakers, they would have super-powered their way into reducing carbon emissions directly, even though they're not in power. It's not enough that the last time they were in power, they worked hard and managed to trim half a billion tons per year of CO₂e from US emissions. In order not to be frauds, they need to do it when they're not in power also. Glad to hear from you bringing a much needed reality check to these proceedings.

Yes, Biden and the Dems handed out enormous sums of money that, probably did or would have helped with climate change; I'll stipulate to that

Thanks for bringing up also that they took massive action on union support and strengthening domestic manufacturing which actually produced some improvement in working-class wages, which is basically un heard of in this country for a US president. I'm glad you keep bringing up factual elements which are important for people to know, so so many people just tend to fall back on lazy stereotypes and talking points in order to make sense of what's going on in Washington, I'm glad to see you not falling into that common pattern.

Oh! So you weren't talking about the whole religious Hispanic community. You were talking about the subset of it who saw through Trump's performative embrace of the gay community and attempts to campaign on the exact opposite of what you said, were deeply aware of his actual actions on LGBTQ+ issues despite the fact that they're not part of that community directly and none of their media ever talked about it, managed to ignore all the propaganda telling them that he valued family and economic issues which were much more directly important to them directly, and decided to vote for him knowing full well that he was going to go after a bunch of people they didn't really have contact with even though nothing they ever did come into contact with ever reminded them of that reality. And specifically of course excluding from that grouping anyone who voted for him for some other reason, like that their families were struggling with groceries and their media was assuring them that he would fix it.

Yeah, fuck those guys. I thought somehow that instead of singling them out very specifically for their very specific actions and motives, you were painting the whole religious Hispanic community. I apologize for not reading more deeply into what you actually meant.

Hey, that's a really good point, the last time "gullible Democratic voters" took power, the guy they put in charge did spend about half a trillion dollars on various climate actions, the biggest single action on climate change probably that ever has happened. It moved the needle significantly (although Trump is now undoing a bunch of that stuff). Of course, it's not enough, but that is precisely why it would have been a good idea to continue and accelerate it instead of taking a hard right turn and deciding to move materially in the exact opposite direction.

Gullible Democratic voters electing Democrats really does have a material impact on the climate, and I'm glad you brought it up, so thank you.

What you are saying is, more or less, literally the point of the article: That it might sound good but it's a bad bad development because a lot of what used to motivate people to commit extremist acts is now getting normalized within "the system." You stopped reading exactly one paragraph too early.

They were willing to sell 10,000 cameras anyway. The point of making it into a public tweet is to publicly gargle the ballsack so everyone knows where they stand.

It wouldn't be racist if you had said they were bigoted (Although I do think it would be wrong, I think the issue is more awareness and education than it is just innate bigotry. They obviously didn't fully know what Trump was about, by definition, or they wouldn't have voted for him.)

Since you said the whole grouping is hypocritical and lacks compassion, that's the racist part. IDK how you can't see that, but it seems like you're just determined not to see it for whatever reason.

Hey, try this instead:

"We have an armed response force ready to protect you against ICE if they come to try to snatch you. We have lawyers at the ready, and we're fine mobilizing the state's National Guard if it comes to that. If you're in another part of the country and worried about your safety, come to Vegas! You can do some gambling and see the sights without worrying if you're going to make it home to your family or not."

Guaranteed spike in tourism. Don't just ask for what you want. Earn it.