Seems like there might be enough traction, so here we go!
Our first "book" shall be āThe Ones Who Walk Away From Omelasā by Ursula K LeGuin.
It is a short story that is readily available online. If you cannot purchase it, rent it, or find it online please let me know and I will provide more information on how to get it.
Trigger warnings: emotional abuse, grooming, and child abuse
I would like to include some discussion questions that are community specific, and not generic book club questions, so these will likely be questions I ask regarding every work, subject to change of course.
Some things to think about while reading:
- Do you think this work is told from a feminist perspective? Why?
- Do you think the authors gender or gender identity affected their choice of subject, writing style, or perspective character?
- Does the narrators gender or gender identity affect the work? If so, how?
- Did this work change your opinion on anything? If so, what and why?
I don't know if I'll start adding generic book club questions, but if you'd like more general discussion questions of the works going forward, please let me know and I can include some. There's just a lot of discussion available already for this specific piece and I don't want answers to common questions to overshadow more nuanced discussions that center women which is why we're all in this community. Also, this is not a homework assignment. You can choose to address any or none of the questions posed here, or talk about your general thoughts or whatever else. Please feel free to pose your own questions in the comments as well. These should serve as a handy springboard if needed, but not a mandatory outline.
Our first movie will be Kpop Demon Hunters. There were some other suggestions, but I wanted to keep it a little lighter considering this months book has some serious trigger warnings and I wanted people to be able to participate in at least one of the two, even if they would rather not engage in heavy topics. This is an animated movie available on Netflix. I know this is a little exclusionary, but there are some other ways to watch it as well.
Trigger warnings: animated violence/gore, discussion of demons and the afterlife
Same as above: I would like to include some discussion questions that are community specific, and not generic movie club questions, so these will likely be questions I ask regarding every work, subject to change of course.
Some things to think about while watching:
- Do you think this work is told from a feminist perspective? Why?
- Do you think the authors gender or gender identity affected their choice of subject, writing style, or perspective character?
- Does the narrators gender or gender identity affect the work? If so, how?
- Did this work change your opinion on anything? If so, what and why?
I don't know if I'll start adding generic questions, but if you'd like more general discussion questions of the works going forward, please let me know and I can include some. There's just a lot of discussion available already for this specific piece and I don't want answers to common questions to overshadow more nuanced discussions that center women which is why we're all in this community. Also, this is not a homework assignment. You can choose to address any or none of the questions posed here, or talk about your general thoughts or whatever else. Please feel free to pose your own questions in the comments as well. These should serve as a handy springboard if needed, but not a mandatory outline.
Comments are spoilers territory. If you want to use spoiler tags in the comments, please do, but it is not required. If you venture into the comments please keep in mind this is a discussion thread for media so there will likely be spoilers.
Going forward This is a community project. I would like to get input regarding written works and tv/movies that would be a good fit for this. I will leave a comment on this thread that you can respond to if you'd like to offer a suggestion. One suggestion per comment please. You can comment multiple times though. I'd like to make sure the selections are widely accessible, so please add that information if you know for sure something is in the public domain or available online, as that makes it easier to recommend. Please vote on the other comments you see there. I'd like to pair heavier topics in one media with lighter topics in the other, just in case you're wondering why a specific piece was not chosen. Things like language or availability may also affect the selection. I'm also open to changing or adding discussion questions.
Thank you all for your interest. Excited to hear your perspectives!
PS: Even if you have seen or read the media before, I would encourage a reread or rewatch to best participate in the discussion!
just finished KPop Demon Hunters
thoughts
Not particularly, no - though it depends on what we mean by feminism. I think some people might see the girls given swords and fighting demons and think this is breaking gender stereotypes, but the film also re-affirms stereotypes of girls and women, like the bath scene when they are all crying incoherently, or the drooling over abs, etc.
To be honest I would say this film was more commerce than art, and certainly had no particularly serious feminist agenda beyond just wishing to appeal to their target demographic. In that sense the film was not coherent in terms of its gender politics, and you see an attempt to appeal to multiple kinds of audiences for maximum commercial appeal.
Considering the film was directed by a man and a woman, and the screenplay was written by a group of two women, I do think the women involved in the creative work were intentional in how they wished to portray the characters, e.g. one of the creators, Maggie Kang, talked about the desire to have female superheroes that were less perfectly feminine:
from wikipedia.
So yeah, this felt like a film by women for women, in a sense.
In this case the narrator I guess is the protagonist? In that case it clearly impacts the whole story - as a girl, her romance to the boy demon and the love he develops for her becomes his path of salvation in the end. The fact the girl is a demon hunter is also I guess related to this general "feminist" branding that might be applied, since she's not a traditional female character in the sense that she fights demons (though we've had Buffy the Vampire Slayer since the 90s, and the Powerpuff Girls, at some point we wonder if this kind of story is even progressive anymore - sometimes it even feels like it can be hard for female characters to be "feminist" and also not occupying traditionally male associated tropes - like being a warrior, or being tough, etc.; there is a real femme-phobia to this logic, I guess).
I sometimes wonder if I'm the problem or if the artwork is the problem - I feel sorta grumpy about this work, and I guess I want to put a finger on why exactly. There are times I certainly enjoy less-than-perfect or even problematic entertainment, but there is something that really bothers me about this film (and maybe others like it).
Perhaps it is the way the film presents itself as having a big message, but then feeling in the end that the film has nothing for us but platitudes - the attempt to appear rich when it doesn't deliver on anything more than the same kind of generic story of good overcoming evil through love and fellowship feels like I keep getting the same recycled Disneyfied story over and over.
But then I wonder if I'm the problem, what if I'm failing to fill the gaps the film leaves for me - I saw an article claiming the film was a metaphor for being queer and closeted. Having lived most of my life as a closeted queer, I never once felt the film related to my experiences, and if anything I felt the film was aggressively heteronormative and anti-queer (not only are there no queer characters, but the central plot revolves around a traditional story of heterosexual romance).
I guess it didn't change my opinion, but it did make me feel ashamed for not being able to enjoy or relate to it the way I assume other people are able to. It makes me feel broken or "problematic" - like I don't know how to have fun or read the context. Instead, I get all stuck in all the little ways the film bothers me.
Not sure why you're being so hard on yourself, no one is required to enjoy any particular piece of media. Your perspective on the so-called queer metaphor is especially valuable.
I didn't like it either. To be fair, I am not the right audience for it. I don't care for cartoons in general, because I don't like frantic motion or loud/irritating voices. This wasn't the worst movie for those, but not great. I didn't realize that Golden song was from this movie. I've had to skip it multiple times on Spotify because I hate the singer's voice.
That creator's comment about girls with pot-bellies is hilarious given how skinny those girls were drawn. I appreciated that they were enthusiastic eaters, but they have ridiculous proportions. There's nothing wrong with skinny bodies, but there is zero body diversity among the female characters. We got one fat character, a man who was comic relief.
Did no one find it weird that they were singing about how demons deserve to die, and everyone in that world thought "demons" were a metaphor for lousy romantic partners - and they were all ok with this song about murdering people?
YES!! This really bothered me the whole time, too - there were fat people in the fans / audience characters (and maybe Bobby to a lesser extent, he just wasn't as skinny and was a bit soft), but wow the main characters were extremely thin and the body normativity in this film felt a bit extreme. Not that every film has to be a perfect representation or that we need to glorify fatness, etc. but for a film by women where they are trying to break stereotypes about women, body positivity would have been a really nice addition to the burping and eating.
It reminds me of Gilmore Girls where the main characters (Lorelai and Rory) are constantly talking about food, constantly eating food, and usually eating junk food (pizza, doughnuts, Chinese takeout, etc.) - yet on screen their bodies are almost dangerously skinny, and they never take more than one bite of their food - they talk about food, but we don't even get to see them actually enjoying it, even fictionally.
I also felt a bit uncomfortable with the dehumanization of the demons, and I expected more from the new Honmoon as being a revolution and a new way of handling demons so that eternal torture wasn't on the table - but instead all we get is the cute boy's soul being given to the protagonist ... :-/ I mean, it was cute - but it wasn't even as consistent with the "good triumphs over evil" narrative ... maybe in that way it's less Christian and Western, leaving an aspect of Eastern dualism in place.
But it also bothered me the way that dualism was so present in the film, and the strange ways the dualism was inverted from typical - in Taoism and Confuscianism for example the yang and yin representing light and dark, sky and earth - usually the dark earth elements are associated with women, while the light and sky elements are associated with men. In the movie, it was flipped - and the men and masculine were the dark demons, and the light demon hunters were women.
In that sense it was a bit like the Barbie movie, where the patriarchy is shown in a flipped fashion, but this feels particularly awful to me as a feminist since the goal isn't to have women on top, but to empower men and women by eliminating patriarchy and working towards gender egalitarianism ... this movie just didn't feel consistent with that, it felt anti-feminist in a way.
Anyway, sorry - lots of rambling.
As to why I'm hard on myself - I just want to be nice and pleasant and to not always be the grumpy, critical person who can't enjoy anything. Especially with mainstream media, it can sometimes feel like everyone but me can enjoy things, and that adds to that sense of defectiveness - why can't I enjoy it? Everyone else enjoys it, so why can't I? It must be something wrong with me.
I'm trying to find more ways to enjoy things, and to find ways to remain positive, nice, and supportive even when something is otherwise bothering me.
That's a great goal for yourself. I've been trying to do something similar. I keep reminding myself of the Ted Lasso philosophy: be curious, not judgemental. Dont forget to be positive and supportive toward yourself, too.
Thanks for the added perspective on eastern philosophy. I don't know much about those but it adds a lot of dimension to your critique.
It can be super frustrating to see nothing but praise for something you thought was flawed. Every time I finish a work I don't like, I immediately go to Storygraph or reviewers on YouTube, trying to find someone who has called out its problems, or already put into beautiful words what i didnt like about it. I don't think I've ever questioned whether something's wrong with me - only wondered what's wrong with everyone else.
I really enjoyed Ted Lasso, and I think it's great that you brought up that mentality here. It's a really lovely outlook. I wish I could find more grace within myself sometimes, and that is a great reminder.
I also run to the Internet as soon as I finish something I don't like. I like to have the reassurance that I'm not the only one that sees these huge issues. More often than not, at least someone has brought them up, which definitely gives me solace. Maybe this goes back to giving other people grace, but I similarly have never finished something I disliked and wondered what was wrong with me. I always just thought that everyone else was wrong. LMAO. ļæ¼ I made a post here a while back about the new Superman movie. Really, the only reason I posted it is because I was basically exclusively seeing glowing praise for it. I think it was the first thing that I had big problems with that no one else had explicitly addressed. Maybe people have sense, but at the time it was extremely frustrating.ļæ¼
I mentioned in a reply to the comment you're replying to, but I am personally giving it a little more leeway because it seems to be tapping into a specific culture where that body type is popular. I don't really know much about the idol culture, and I'm not saying that's good or positive, but it is possibly an accurate reflection of the current cultural moment. I am definitely speaking out of ignorance, so feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. Obviously, I support all kinds of diversity, including body diversity, but in this case I was willing to give it quite a big pass.
I also agree about the end result for the demons. Again, I really don't have enough cultural context to speak intelligently on that, but I appreciate you adding about the reversal of culturally thematic elements for feminine and masculine. ļæ¼ I didn't explicitly mind that there was no "happily ever after" for everyone. If a certain culture or even a certain work wants to suggest that people who do bad things have bad things happen to them and that's just how the world works, I'm not going to fault it for that.ļæ¼ I might not agree, but I am willing to give it that space to explore.
Interesting that you bring up the Barbie movie. I have so much to say about that, but I won't derail this here.ļæ¼ļæ¼ I will just add that I think your reading is correct. It did not start out as a "feminist utopia". That was one of Margot Robbie's characters issues. It was this hyper saccharine commodified ideal of feminism. It wasn't a perfect movie, but her going to the gynecologist at the end of the movie basically makes your point, and it's the movies point. Feminism isn't girly pop "girls run the world" bs. It's every day equality that acknowledges women as full human beings who sometimes need to go to the gynecologist.
Regarding the last bit where you talk about yourself. I find myself in a somewhat similar situation sometimes. I first posted on here about the Superman movie, which seemed to be almost universally loved. I was really surprised that people walked away enjoying it so much. I've had lots of conversations about it at this point, and I think so many people just think "it's not that deep, bro". I'm willing to acknowledge that part of enjoying media may necessitate just turning your brain off, but there are some issues that are so egregious it makes it impossible to ignore. I think that line is different for everyone, and to a certain extent I think that you finding it hard to do so speaks to an unwillingness to overlook injustices even in media. Though that might not lead to great personal outcomes, it probably indicates a level of investment in equality that we should all aspire to.
The body diversity issue that you bring up is super valid. There were a couple side characters, like the older woman or audience members, that were different but I think I was just excited to see that they were not suffering from same face syndrome. I imagine the body type thing is inherited from idol culture which I will admit I know basically nothing about. I do know that they are generally perceived as overworked to achieve a certain aesthetic though. Would have loved to see more diversity in general, but this seemed to be tapping into a very specific cultural moment, and since I'm not plugged into idol culture I really can't speak to it.
I had to go back and actually listen to the lyrics. So funny that you bring that up. Even if you read the songs as though they are about abusive romantic partners, they are definitely talking about killing them. I didn't really think much about it, and I like to think I pay an inordinately large amount of attention to the lyrics of songs, so that's super funny to me. I imagine most of their fans were similarly just enjoying the beat, or were not taking it particularly literally. ļæ¼Appreciate you bringing that up though! Definitely worth a top level comment imho.
It's so interesting that you came away from it thinking it is not feminist due to the emotions and sexualization. I felt like that almost made it a "better" feminist work. Showing these powerful women also being emotionally available to one another was empowering, or as empowering as a commercialized and fictionalized portrayal can be. The same about them showing sexual interest. So many strong confident women are shown to be "too cool" and exude a detached style when it comes to romance, so I really liked the way that it humanized them and allowed them to be both powerful and sexual beings, without being sexualized. It wasn't quite a role reversal, but obviously the men were being sexualized by them and it didn't take away from their ability to fight them.
You mention this concept of femme phobia and the recycling of tropes, but also that you view the bathhouse and abs scenes as not feminist. ļæ¼ļæ¼ I would suggest that one of the differentiating factors here between characters like Buffy or generic superheroes is this willingness to be overtly emotional and obviously interested in sexuality. They are able to just say "oh, I find him attractive!" and not have that take away from their perceived power or confidence. ļæ¼
To a certain extent I can see how this might fit into some people's personal experience with their gender identity or sexuality, but I agree with you that it does not resonate that way for me.
I'm really sorry to hear that the movie left you feeling that way. I would agree with you that there wasn't anything particularly novel about the premise or the "lesson", but I did still find it a fun watch. I think for a movie that was probably predominantly aimed at children, it was the appropriate level of complex, but it obviously lacked the nuance necessary to address these topics for a more experienced adult audience. I don't think that you are missing anything, or failing to draw necessary conclusions. ļæ¼ļæ¼Obviously, I can't speak to your experience, but I do try to meet works where they are at. ļæ¼This one probably hit the mark for its target audience, but you might prefer something more mature in its tone and theme. Unfortunately, I don't think the runtime of a standard movie will be able to deliver a message that is coherent and conclusive and not be able to be boiled down to platitudes, especially if it is aimed towards a younger audience. For what it's worth, I find myself feeling more or less the way that you described when it comes to anime in general. I have watched a few that people referred to as the best of all time and talk about how impactful it was on their life and their outlook, but I really just don't see it. It might just be that the genre or style of this work did not vibe with you. ļæ¼
I'm not sure if you didn't mention it because You didn't have anything to say, or you would just prefer not to read it, but if you are looking for something more ambiguous and intellectually challenging, the suggested book can be read in less time than it would take to watch the movie, and might be more substantive for you. You don't have to justify not reading it, plenty of reasons not to, I just don't know of any movie that would satisfy that itch off the top of my head in a way that the book did. If I think of/come across one, I will let you know. ļæ¼ļæ¼
PS: the tangents videos you suggested have heavily influence my reading and analysis this past month. I refer to a few in my comment.ļæ¼Can't stress enough how much I appreciate the suggestion. I tried to binge them all this month before posting, but fell short. I'll definitely have them finished by next month. ļæ¼
hm, I guess I feel maybe I failed to communicate well - I'm surprised your take away was that I didn't think it was feminist because of the emotions and sexualization š¤
To be fair, I did mention the way sometimes it felt like they leaned into gender stereotypes, but this was more to show how the show was a mix of breaking and re-affirming gender stereotypes ... They have the girls be warriors with swords, but then they are abs obsessed and crying incoherently - you have both stereotypical masculine traits and stereotypical feminine traits being embodied by the characters.
Regardless, I guess I didn't feel that it wasn't a feminist film because it wasn't absolute in its commitment to breaking gender stereotypes (I tend to be critical of media like this, as I mentioned - we should be able to celebrate femininity and also be feminist).
It certainly intersects, though - one could say this has features of a kind of post-feminist approach where the project isn't to just break stereotypes, but to do a bit of both. Maybe this is enough to qualify the film as feminist for most people (the fact that female characters were breaking gender stereotypes at all might qualify it for some), but I guess in my mind it takes a bit more than that to qualify as a "feminist film", but as I write this it just makes me realize my sensitivities and perceptions are obviously different than others - making me feel the label is relative and contextual - maybe conservative Christians I know would think the film was obviously woke and feminist, and I just wouldn't agree because I see all the ways it affirms status quo gender norms and how the feminist parts of the film are kept on a superficial level.
And you're right that a lot of this has to do with the fact that it's a film primarily for entertainment with a target audience that skews young, probably for teenagers and pre-teens. Still, I would point to works by Miyazaki for being earnestly feminist in their themes, despite also being targeted at a young audience, and also being "anime". Maybe part of the problem is that K-Pop Demon Hunters was commerce first and foremost, while films by Miyazaki are painstakingly handmade, slow and expensive to produce, and their stories show deeper commitments and values than just making money.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment that the characters attraction to boys was humanizing and also made the film appropriately appealing to girls and young women, and that this bolsters the film as something made for women - though I remain skeptical that this constitutes something being feminist I understand that most people would think it does.
I recently watched Lars von Trier's Nymphomaniac, a two-volume, five and a half hour film that as far as I can tell is one of the most feminist films I have ever seen - not that it isn't without its complications. Needless to say, I have been spending some time soaking in more mature films as well š Perhaps this only makes it worse when I watch K-Pop Demon Hunters, though I have to say I've also been watching a lot of Sex and the City recently, so it's not like I've only been watching serious material.
ah, I've already read "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" - I have thoughts but maybe too many thoughts ... it also intersects with some of my own personal difficulties living in society generally, so maybe I just haven't engaged them because it's complicated, painful, and ... well, complicated.
In a nutshell, I can't always tell what the moral responsibility is for an individual in a society where so many problems are structural. I feel it is impossible to be a good person. I think The Good Place did a decent job summarizing the situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8
As an individual there are so many disturbing aspects to society I don't know what to do, it is so much worse unfortunately than a single child being tortured - and even that seems too much. These moral feelings well up inside of me and demand action and justice ... I went through years of intensifying radicalization, but to remain within the constraints of society, I had to find outlets that were deemed reasonable enough (i.e. I felt like going to Syria to disarm landmines, but people in my life would prefer I not take such extreme risks and make such extreme sacrifices). So I became a strict ethical vegan, and I stopped using my car, instead using a bicycle and cycling 16 km (one way) to school or work despite a lack of bicycle lanes, safe infrastructure, and even regular and overt hostility from motorists.
For me, refusing to buy meat or bicycle were almost pointless personal sacrifices - it was something I could do, but relative to the size of the problems it did nothing to ease my guilt. I festered by starting a mealworm farm to convert Styrofoam waste that my household produced into a biodegradable waste product, I obsessively recycled, I scrupulously sourced as much food and household goods as I could from bulk bins with reusable containers, I composted all organic waste I produced, and so on. None of this even remotely helped me feel relief, I was reading history books about Latin America and learning how the U.S. tortured and murdered so many people, I visited places in central America and saw the bullet holes and the poverty for myself.
So to walk away from Omelas really would have probably meant death for me, or at least a life where my spouse would not be able to follow, where my family and loved ones would worry about me, etc.
What it would take for me to feel like I was doing enough for the metaphorical tortured children of the world are things that I never felt I could do within the constraints of my life.
A breaking point came after I was hit by a car for a second time, and my spouse had to leave their job and take me to the emergency room ... My attempt to be a good person was making me an obsessive, miserable burden on the people in my life who loved me.
I spent months basically bedridden, unable to work in any capacity - and I spent that time on my mental health, and that got me to a place where eventually I started to realize being a good person required I take care of myself and attend to the people directly in my life, and not just focus on the ways my life intersected with big social problems. I eventually relaxed in every way, I let some nuance in and recognize now that yes, I am part of a deeply immoral system - but I didn't choose this system, and I'm doing what I can to change it and be a good person, the buck does not stop with me and I can't solve these problems myself.
I guess I came to terms with the torture, now I just accept it. It still bothers me, but it is no longer a fire that consumes me. I'm a much happier, safer person now - I would like to think I'm a better person now, too.
Would love to walk away someday still, maybe if people that love me die or are no longer in my life and I am left unburdened by social relationships, I could feel free to live life in a way that is more compatible with my values. Until then, I'll try to be a good person relative to my circumstances.
It was likely an issue on my end interpreting. I took the stereotype thing as a critique on the concept of the film being feminist, which I should not have done considering your recent comment. For what it's worth, I think having some stereotype conformity and nonconformity makes the characters more realistic to me, but I can see how it can seem more like they're just a madlibs of stereotypes than real people to others.
I totally agree with your idea that it likely depends on who is talking about it. Now that you bring this up I feel like I need to add context to my statement. I think you are right to say it's not a "feminist" film. I think it qualifies as a "feminist kids movie" because my personal bar for feminism in children's media is quite low, but now that I think more about it, it really needs that qualifier "for a children's movie". I appreciate you adding that perspective. Using Miyazaki as a standard is so smart. Those works are definitely thoughtful explorations of characters that feel earnest in a way that defies framing as anything but honest. I am not sure how much commercialization affected the story as much as just the people writing it, but there's definitely an element of high tempo frantic excitement that is common in a lot of more commercial works whereas Miyazaki definitely wants you to sit with his characters. I went on a Lars von Treir kick years ago and came away from those films with a completely opposite perspective! Lol. I will have to watch them again and get back to you if my feelings have changed since.
Totally valid reasoning, not that you needed me to say that. The good place is an absolute gem. The only show I've rewatched in its entirety.
That resonates so deeply with me and likely with so many others here. Very well put.
Wow. I was addressing your comment as I was reading it and then I got to the remainder and quite frankly I don't know how to respond. The lengths you went through seem so profound. I'm sorry that the world is the way it is and has caused so much hurt in your life and the lives of so many and that it will likely continue to do so. For what it's worth, I think settling on a healthy acknowledgement of the issues and some personal responsibility, without allowing it to consume you is the best way to go about it. The line is different for everyone, but it seems like you have found or are finding yours and that's so important. I really respect your ability to evolve and grow to be better for those in your life and around the world. I really believe that if enough of us had that mindset real change could happen, and all we have to do as individuals is to embody that and demonstrate it for others. Thank you for that reminder.