this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
590 points (99.2% liked)
Privacy
31876 readers
1 users here now
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
Chat rooms
-
[Matrix/Element]Dead
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Finally, been ages.
A number is still needed to register I believe.
Requiring a number is a good way to limit bots.
A PoW could limit bots too. Require say 30 seconds of work before your registration submits. For regular users that isnt to bad. For bots its a PITA to get tons of accounts
Edit: tor uses PoW as DDOS protection and its helped massively
PoW...Prisoner of war?
That will also keep away bots.
You can only sign up if you've taken at least one Prisoner of War. Bots can't take prisoners of war for obvious reasons.
Kinda like how Aztec boys came into age in their society.
Proof of work. Example, bitcoin
How does this prove anything if using an emulator to bulk register bot accounts? Also, Signal Desktop is a thing.
It was the original purpose of the bitcoin algorithm to limit spam.
If you have to do a lot of maths that takes your computer (for example) 30 seconds, that means it costs 30 seconds of compute to create an account. Nothing to an average user, for a spammer that wants thousands of accounts it gets expensive.
Several captcha[0] libraries already use this and it's great for accessibility (normal captchas are terrible for it)
[0] I know, it's not technically a captcha.
Accessibility is very important to me as a blind user, and this helps tremendously.
Oh, neat. I was unfamiliar with PoW. Thanks!
Pow does not limit spam in bitcoin. Fees do. Pow is used as a decentralized election mecanism to distribute the block production.
I know what it is. It is not a barrier to entry though.
He explained why it is, so can you elaborate on why it's not?
Because it's not. I can spin any number of emulators or VMs that do any amount of work with a simple script, but that's all it does. How does it prove I'm anything but a scripted, virtual instance of a person with a device?
There's a reason why Telegram is flooded with bots, Signal as of now has not been.
It's a time and resource gate, not a way to prove that you're a human.
Also doesn't Telegram require a phone number too?
You're in the wrong thread.
I'm really not. Did you want to try making a coherent point again? Or are you all tapped out?
Yes. Please explain again how compute == human
It doesn't... No one was claiming that...
Are you lost?
Sure, if you had unlimited gpus with unlimited electricity then it wouldn't keep you from spinning up unlimited bots
Bruh. No GPU needed. I build multiplatform apps daily on GitHub Actions. Dafuq you talking about?
how do you produce unique hashes with the correctly sized nonce?
Dafuq are you talking about ? Telegram does need phone numbers for sign up
Check that
Of course it does.
Bots can buy phone numbers, hell, they can solve most captchas better than humans.
Telegram requires a phone number, so it clearly isn't working.
For each account you register, you have to do 30 seconds worth of work. So to register one account, you do 30 seconds worth of work. To register 100 accounts, you do 100*30 or 3000 seconds (50 minutes) worth of work. Registering tens of thousands of accounts then becomes unfeasible.
And how can a VM or emulator NOT do this?
Anything that can compute can do it. The important part is that it has an associated non-insignificant cost.
Exactly! ANYTHING THAT CAN COMPUTE CAN DO IT. Few things have a uniquely identifying piece of information with other levels that are barriers to entry...like a phone number. The idea is to STOP bots from signing up to Signal.
Are you missing the point maybe?
It stops bot FARMS from being feasible.
If preventing Jimmy Bumfuck from spinning up a couple sock puppets is your fear, yeah, PoW systems don't help. But those are rarely the problem.
For a phishing scam or astroturf operation to be worth it, you need tens of thousands of accounts all running the same script. Those get filtered hard by PoW systems.
Phone validation works just as well, and stops Jimmy Bumfuck from making sock accounts. But now every user must be stapled to a phone number. Maybe that's a worthwhile trade to you, but it sure doesn't seem to be to everyone replying to you.
It makes bots more expensive to create, therefore fewer will be created.
It doesn't stop anyone though. Expensive is relative when you convince a Grandma to give you her $1000 check for a $5 phone number.
Nah bro, you are.
It's ALSO possible to generate virtual phone numbers for a small cost.
Using a cryptographic PoW is a different small cost.
Either way, it only takes a small cost to prevent mass bot registration.
You're treating processing power and time as if it is 100% free just because it can be done in a VM. But it doesn't matter if it is a VM. It is still going to require at least some certain threshold of processor time, and that processor time has a real cost. For the kind of place that can just spin up thousands of VMs and use it to do massive bot registration... they could just be mining bitcoins instead.
It's not just whether you can do this. It's how much value it has vs what ELSE you could be doing with the time and energy. A Signal account is already worth vanishingly little as a spam tool, they just need to give it enough of a cost to make it not worthwhile.
Indeed, which makes their headline a bit misleading. Giving Signal your phone number is not keeping it private.
I thought peoples big problem with it was not wanting to give others their number to use signal? Like I meet Joe Blog online and don't want to give him my real number to chat.
Less people worried that signal had their number?
Seems the second group is a vocal minority. This feature helps the first group, but doesn't help the second group.
According to Signal, the first group is the larger group and this helps the most users of Signal.
Could it be better? Sure. This is still a good step in terms of privacy, even though it doesn't really improve anonymity.
Its important to not let perfect be the enemy of good.
Personally, I care about the phone number requirement not because I don't want to reveal it to Signal servers, but because it limits access to Signal for people in countries that block their SMS service - registration messages just don't arrive
It's specific to signal? Like they want to block people registering or what's up with that SMS block?
Putting a SIM card in a phone exposes it to enormous surface area of attack. People have been asking to register with anonymous emails instead of a phone number, like Wire has had for years
Do you need the SIM card inside the phone after registration?
Does it matter? At that point your phone is owned by Pegasus et all with zero click vulns
The issue is that giving your phone number to Signal Messenger LLC is giving it to others, and therefore not keeping it private in the usual sense of the word.
Some people may be unconcerned about a corporation knowing their number vs. their contacts knowing their number, but that doesn't diminish the misleading aspect of this headline.
They do a lot of work to keep your phone number private, or at least any data that is tied to it. This username upgrade is solely for someone to communicate over Signal without needing to hand over your phone number.
For example, you can now be in group chats with internet strangers by just giving them your username.
On top of that, once MLS is adopted, you can communicate with other messengers as well.
What is MLS?
Kinda stupid for privacy to hand over your phone number... Very counter intuitive