this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2024

281 points (99.6% liked)

THE POLICE PROBLEM

4137 readers

2 users here now

The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.

99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.

When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.

When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."

When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.

Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.

The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.

All this is a path to a police state.

In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.

Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.

That's the solution.

♦ ♦ ♦

Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.

♦ ♦ ♦

RULES

① Real-life decorum is expected. Please don't say things only a child or a jackass would say in person.

② If you're here to support the police, you're trolling. Please exercise your right to remain silent.

③ Saying ~~cops~~ ANYONE should be killed lowers the IQ in any conversation. They're about killing people; we're not.

④ Please don't dox or post calls for harassment, vigilantism, tar & feather attacks, etc.

Please also abide by the instance rules.

It you've been banned but don't know why, check the moderator's log. If you feel you didn't deserve it, hey, I'm new at this and maybe you're right. Send a cordial PM, for a second chance.

♦ ♦ ♦

ALLIES

• !abolition@slrpnk.net

• !acab@lemmygrad.ml

• r/ACAB

• r/BadCopNoDonut/

• Randy Balko

• The Civil Rights Lawyer

• The Honest Courtesan

• Identity Project

• MirandaWarning.org

♦ ♦ ♦

INFO

• A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions

• Adultification

• Cops aren't supposed to be smart

• Don't talk to the police.

• Killings by law enforcement in Canada

• Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom

• Killings by law enforcement in the United States

• Know your rights: Filming the police

• Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)

• Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.

• Police lie under oath, a lot

• Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak

• Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street

• Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States

• So you wanna be a cop?

• When the police knock on your door

♦ ♦ ♦

ORGANIZATIONS

• Black Lives Matter

• Campaign Zero

• Innocence Project

• The Marshall Project

• Movement Law Lab

• NAACP

• National Police Accountability Project

• Say Their Names

• Vera: Ending Mass Incarceration

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

JonsJava@lemmy.world

281

[Followup] Deputy charged with murdering Black woman allegedly told partner not to give aid (www.independent.co.uk)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by octopus_ink@lemmy.ml to c/thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world

46 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Prosecutors alleged that when Grayson and his partner responded to Massey’s home, Grayson allowed her to move a pot of water heating on the stove, but as she set it on a counter, Grayson then “aggressively yelled” at Massey over the pot and pulled his 9mm pistol.

Massey then asked what the deputies were doing, to which Grayson responded, “Getting away from your hot, steaming water.”

“I rebuke you in the name of Jesus,” Massey said twice, according to the documents reviewed by NBC News.

Grayson responded, “I swear to God. I will shoot you right in your f------ face.”

When Grayson drew his service weapon and ordered her to drop the pot, she let go, then crouched below a line of cabinets, and declared “I’m sorry” before being shot in the face, prosecutors said.

Grayson did not render aid to Massey and discouraged his partner from getting his medical kit because he thought her injury was too severe, according to the court document filed in support of keeping Grayson in custody without bond.

all 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] dohpaz42@lemmy.world 87 points 1 year ago

Grayson had been with the Sangamon County Sheriff’s Department about 18 months after serving as an officer with several other police agencies in central Illinois for about seven years before that.

Im going to go out on a limb and say that maybe he had a pattern of behavior that caused him to precinct hop that instead should have led to his being banned from being a cop in the first place. So if I were the lawyers for the family, I’d be looking there and adding other policies agencies to the list being sued.

[+] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 61 points 1 year ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

[deleted]

[–] SoupBrick@pawb.social 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Applicants can be legally rejected for having too high IQ. Wouldn't want the piggies to become self-aware.

https://aele.org/apa/jordan-newlondon.html

https://www.wirthlawoffice.com/tulsa-attorney-blog/2013/07/court-okd-citys-too-smart-to-be-a-cop-rule

[–] chknbwl@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago (2 children)

D) All of the above

Pigs are just a fraternity, intellect has zilch to do with any function of their agency. Most are in it because they think it makes them look cool. Others join because it makes them feel powerful and superior to others. Then there are genuine evil people, like the above shitbucket, who wear the badge specifically to hold the firearm.

Even the ones that join to protect their "community" are, more often than not, passively protecting a status quo instead.

[+] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

[deleted]

[–] thefartographer@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

But then how are the police supposed to hire all these low-functioning racists?

[+] ReverendIrreverence@lemmy.ml -16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Not to dilute the ACAB vibe but a couple of quarts of boiling water thrown on you will irrevocably and painfully change your life for the worse for years to come.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 14 points 1 year ago

If only there were some way to avoid a thrown pot of water, like, I dunno, maybe by teleporting out the door? Calling the eagles to get carried 6 feet, and out of range? Using the freeze-breath super-power? Sprouting housefly wings and flitting away? Sadly, there's absolutely nothing realistically that a buff, 6'3", 220lbs. cop could possibly have done to move himself out of danger of flung hot water, 72 long inches away, so shooting her in the face (after she put it down) was of course the only proportionate response. /s

[–] chknbwl@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Not to dilute the ACAB vibe but a couple of quarts of boiling water thrown on you will irrevocably and painfully change your life for the worse for years to come.

Idk being shot in the face sounds just a little worse. That might just be me though.

[–] pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 9 points 1 year ago

You could always, you know, ask them to step away from it.

[–] ReverendIrreverence@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Let's not forget the extra-added bonus of "Badge Bunnies/holster sniffers" if you're into that sort of thing

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

Yes.

[–] EnderMB@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I had considered joining the police here in the UK. The pay is okay, the pension is fantastic, and it felt like something you'd do to help people. For all the shit police get, when you're in a horrible situation like a family member dying at home, or a violent break-in, having the police there to help pick the pieces up and guide you can be great.

The problem is that the reality of the job is endless paperwork, having hardly any training for the job that you do, having a public that (rightly) hates you, and you're put in positions that you can't really win.

IMO the police shouldn't be defunded. They should get far more funding, in return for FAR more training. Their unions should be responsible for ensuring their members are fully trained and able to act on their training, leaving the role if they can't. Those that can't keep up should be retrained in other fields, like mental health work, the law, or social support.

But to answer your question, I think those that don't join the police see the hypocrisy of joining a force that actively does the opposite of what you want the police to be. Those that do are ignorant to it, or apathetic to its presence (e.g. not all cops).

[–] JustZ@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Defund the police generally means two things, first cut the police budget to essential police functions only, and second build a new agency in its place.

The problem is the entire cat and mouse model of policing. In that model, it's nobody's job to address the causes of crime. That's where we should be spending money, not chasing people that already did a crime.

E: I don't fully believe that all police agencies in America traced their lineage to slave patrols, as some modern thinkers say, but when they say that what they mean is that the cat and mouse model of policing in America arose from slave patrols. Defund police means to abandon catch and capture policing in favor of a model of prevention and protectection.

Obviously, essential police functions sometimes include sending armed men to capture dangerous bad guys. That function of policing will never go away.

[–] morphballganon@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I considered becoming a cop before ACAB was a popular slogan, and my reasons for considering it were: 1. Good pay 2. Good benefits 3. Less likely for people to pick a fight with you 4. Complimentary access to a good gym

My motivations had nothing to do with starting fights, escalating fights, discriminating, intimidating regular people etc. Maybe that's why I didn't go for it.

[–] NobodyElse@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

ACAB dates back to the 1920’s and has been a popular slogan since then. The trope of cops being dumb, corrupt, and sadistic dates back to at least the 13th century (Sheriff of Nottingham, etc).

There’s no way anyone goes into law enforcement and is surprised by what cops are unless they come from a police family and are brainwashed from a young age. I just don’t buy it.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Eh, I didn't really understand ACAB until I was in my early 20s, and I don't think I was any more brainwashed than the average UK child.

I can see an alternate world where someone like me, who had a strong sense of justice, might have wanted to join the police because of believing that the police can or should be a force for good.

Even though I was pretty solidly leftist in university, I still held the view of "oh come on, all cops are bastards? That seems extreme" and I thought that ACAB was mostly a cathartic but needlessly inflammatory slogan. It wasn't until I actively sought out opinions and writing from people who earnestly believed ACAB that I actually understood that it's not a comment on individual cops, but on the system itself which basically precludes the existence of non-bastardy cops

[–] NobodyElse@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

Fair enough. I’m glad that you made the right decision!

[–] morphballganon@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It has become much more popular in the last 10 years than it was before that (perhaps in my region, if not everywhere). Also, as a kid I saw the Sheriff of Nottingham as an individual, not a stereotype. My family isn't a "police family" but we're also not a "constant run-ins with the police" family either.

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 33 points 1 year ago

Piece of garbage.

[–] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 31 points 1 year ago

This was a fucking execution.

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 29 points 1 year ago

This isn't in the summary above, bit the article says Massey called the police about a prowler, that's why they were there.

Then they showed up and shot her.

Both cops made so many mistakes here. Obviously Grayson just shouldn't be a cop nor own a weapon, but it's also clear that these 2 haven't had any training.

[–] newtraditionalists@kbin.melroy.org 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

All cops are stupid reactionary cowards who have a superiority complex exacerbated by the fact that they are just cognizant enough to know that they are stupider than people around them.

[–] madcaesar@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

I hate that Hollywood propaganda has build cops up as heroes. They are bullies or cowards all of them.

The guys partner if he was a true hero wouid have immediately tased this animal and arrested him.

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

All cops are stupid reactionary cowards who have a superiority complex exacerbated by the fact that they are just cognizant enough to know that they are stupider than people around them.

I feel like we could shorten that to way less words... maybe an abbreviation that people would recognize. ;)

[–] CTDummy@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

“I swear to God. I will shoot you right in your f------ face.”

What is it with these sort of cops talking like this. It’s one thing if it was an actual perp who might have a weapon and moving for one, wild shit may come out your mouth but at someone’s house while they have a kettle? The actual fuck. Like isn’t it a literal line out of super troopers??

Also, the hell are cops with skull tattoos on their forearm doing wearing a uniform. Get some admission standards or just any standards for your police force already god damn.

[–] Glifted@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

This is all of them. This is who they are now.

[–] BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because people with skull tattoos are obviously bad guys. There are documentaries about that. Or was it bad action movies? Ahhh same thing apparently

[–] CTDummy@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

That’s pretty obviously, not what I mean. I have tattoos so I understand their meaning can span beyond basic symbolism. That said cops here can’t have certain tattoos or tattoos above their collar. I would imagine that having a pile of skulls tattooed on your forearm may (or at least should) detract from your chances at a job that’s public service based. Shit there are jobs that don’t trust you with a gun that you’d probably not get.

[–] laserm@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

What the fuck is wrong with some people?

[–] CableMonster@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The article says they are releasing the body cam video today, so that should be pretty condeming if this story is accurate.

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They've charged him with murder (as is also in this very headline), so it would be a little surprising if the cam showed anything else.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sonya-massey-death-illinois-deputy-173536807.html

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The article says they are releasing the body cam video today, so that should be pretty condeming if this story is accurate.

Sure is.

https://apnews.com/article/illinois-police-shooting-911-murder-7a1b433183933ca94f266c0f90753a33

The video from body cameras shows a tense moment in which former Sangamon County Sheriff’s Deputy Sean Grayson yelled at 36-year-old Sonya Massey to set down a pot from the stove just seconds after she started pouring the water into the sink and the two giggled over her “hot steaming water.” He then threatens to shoot her, Massey ducks then briefly rises and Grayson fires his pistol at her three times.

Grayson tells her to give him her ID. Then he points to the kitchen for the other deputy to check on the stove. “We don’t need a fire while we’re here.”

Massey goes to the kitchen and after she and Grayson share a laugh, she says, “I rebuke you in the name of Jesus,” and asks him a question.

“You better (expletive) not or I swear to God I’ll (expletive) shoot you in your (expletive) face.” He then pulls his 9mm pistol and says “Drop the (expletive) pot.”

Massey says, “OK, I’m sorry.” In Grayson’s bodycam footage, he pulls the gun and when she ducks, she raises her hands and it looks like she has the red pan in her hands. But Grayson is still in the living room, facing Massey, behind a counter dividing the living room and kitchen, 10 or 15 feet away.

The other deputy, who is not named, said “I’m gonna go get my kit.”

Grayson said, “No, it’s a headshot. She done. You can go get it, but that’s a headshot ... there’s nothing you can do, man.”

He added: “What else do we do? I’m not taking hot (expletive) boiling water to the (expletive) face”

Noting that Massey was still breathing despite losing a lot of blood, he relented and said he would get his kit too. The other deputy responded, “We can at least try to stop the bleeding.”

Speaking to responding police, Grayson told them “she had boiling water and came at me, with boiling water. ... She said she was going to rebuke me in the name of Jesus and came at with boiling water.”

[–] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

that should be pretty condeming if this story is accurate.

Ah - yep.

[–] p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Lmao this is so fucking pathetic and unsurprising.

[+] masquenox@lemmy.world -9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And to think... come this November, you might have one of these pigs for president.

[–] OneWomanCreamTeam@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The article I saw right above this one was "Donald Trump says he'd like to take Kim Jong-un to a baseball game, as he brags about their friendship"

So yeah, we don't have a lot of options.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

US politicians do far worse than taking Kim Jong-Un to baseball games - have you seen the smorgasbord of death, torture and murder they treat Israel to?

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes, and Trump would hand Israel nukes, or MOABs, with permission to, and I quote, "finish the job."

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Israel already has nukes, Clyde - thanks to the US, France and Germany - and Israel already has permission to "finish the job" as far as the US is concerned. The problem for Israel is not that Israel doesn't have "permission" but that the IDF is a failed military that cannot "finish the job" - even with nukes.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I'm aware they have nukes the way Japan does. They aren't fully assembled. As far as finishing the job is concerned, they don't seem to need nukes, they're just genociding them and starving them. Trump is just so damn nuke happy he wanted to nuke a hurricane.

[–] OneWomanCreamTeam@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Both within American borders, and outside of them, the cruelty of the Republican part is ceaseless. The US and Palestine aren't the only places that Republican rule can make worse.