this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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I found this podcast from this reddit-logo post:

I subbed today for a 7th and 8th grade teacher. I’m not exaggerating when I say at least 50% of the students were at a 2nd grade reading level. The students were to spend the class time filling out an “all about me” worksheet, what’s your name, favorite color, favorite food etc. I was asked 20 times today “what is this word?”. Movie. Excited. Trait. “How do I spell race car driver?”

I've only listened to one episode so far, but it's really well produced, seems well-researched and very well put together.

From what I gather so far, the ways that the American public school system "teaches" kids how to read is not only completely wrong, but actually saddles them bad habits which fundamentally hinder their reading comprehension.

A huge swath of American adults are functionally illiterate, and I think I'm starting to understand why.

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[–] Redcat@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (19 children)

A lot of people are commenting about how, so what, lots of people can read and are also stupid. Except this isn't about being stupid. Or dumb. Reading and writing is a skill you gotta be tutored into. You won't learn it through intuition. You won't learn it through osmosis, guesswork or because the Holy Ghost descended from the heavens to enlighten your soul. You have to be taught, step by step, how to decode writing in order to then develop it into other skills, like different levels of reading, making annotations, making summaries, prose writing, and so on. All of these things should ideally become second nature to you through a long process of 'scholarization', one that is formulated with full understanding of what kids of different ages tend to need, and what kids in particular may require of their teachers.

Think about it. This isn't like zoomers being unable to use Windows because they have phones. It's like not having a school system in the first place. Good god, the districts that keep this scam pedagogy in place are gonna create a lost generation.

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[–] emizeko@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)
[–] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

"...at all. The more one read, the more one was subject to indoctrination, which is something which of course I experienced myself. This is the reason why achieving “literacy” is always the first aim of communist regimes. Elementary."

[–] emizeko@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago

that's the chaser that lets you know it's not a bit and therefore even funnier in a twisted way

[–] readmore@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago (7 children)

That reddit thread is full of people (hopefully not teachers) insisting that it's actually a parent's job to teach their children to read. Ignoring the 'fuck poor or undereducated parents' attitude on display, I have to ask, what's the point of early education then? My first few years of school were all about literacy and numeracy skills. If these aren't the responsibility of the education system at that age, then what on earth is? I guess it's just daycare to these people...

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

People have just accepted that American public education is a failure and the parents have to do the real teaching. And yet so many parents don't even know there's anything wrong until way too late. Even if the schools are passing kids despite not being able to read, an engaged parent should be able to notice it very early on as long they read with their kid at home. My mom read to me nearly every night until I could read on my own. She would read a page and then have me read a page after a while. Eventually, I was reading whole books to her and I loved reading so much that when I got in trouble one time she took my bookcase away, leaving me with a TV that sat unused, while I bawled my eyes out.

[–] JuneFall@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Even if the schools are passing kids despite not being able to read

And schools should always pass kids. The body of literature, theory and experiments in that regard for teaching education in Europe is quite extensive. If your society is structured around passing grades then the way to built up on the ability of students isn't to force them for years in the same rooms, but to change what they experience, keep up the social links and give specific support.

Besides that even if a school isn't able to give specific support it is better for kids to not be put in repeating classes.

What you write is true though, having cultural attitudes at home that do sometimes center books are great. They ought to be somewhat supplemented even for kids that are praised as being smart with other things, that are beneficial for social and physical aspects. If your kid likes a certain series, try to enable the kid to visit a fan conference about it or alike.

Just like in Le Guin's Earth Sea, one of the most important lessons for the young magician's apprentice wasn't to control magic. It was to chill under trees and find calm as well as connection in nature.

[–] duderium@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago

A special ed teacher who had been working for decades and who knew many students who had been held back told me the same. Even as adults these students would tell him that things had been going okay until they had been held back. One administration hinted at doing the same to one of our kids because he didn’t speak English at an academic level, but we worked our asses off to bring him up to speed in a matter of months, and the same special ed teacher told us that parents don’t actually need to hold their kids back if they don’t want to (something the principal failed to mention). Soon enough our kid was reading, writing, and speaking at his grade level (which he’d already been doing in his mother tongue) and the principal acted like she had never even suggested that she wanted to hold him back. And shit like this could have ruined his life! School is already difficult enough without every figure of authority telling you you’re too much of a fuckup to advance with your friends to the next grade!

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[–] temptest@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago

she took my bookcase away, leaving me with a TV that sat unused

My intuition suggests that this contravenes the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 26.

[–] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

when I got in trouble one time she took my bookcase away,

Giga Chad mom casually lifting up an entire book case and moving it out of your room.

[–] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago

No she just glared angrily at the bookcase until it left of its own accord

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[–] Egon@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

While parents aren't the people solely responsible for their childrens education, it is striking to me how things have changed recently.

The kids coming in are less well-equpped than they used to be. Not potty trained, can't tie their shoes, can't tell the time. Like it used to be a few kids that had an issue or two, but now it's a bunch with a lot of issues.
Things have gotten worse recently. Parents aren't as able to help their children as they used to be. This does increase the work load for teachers.

[–] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 3 points 2 years ago

Making everyone desperate and afraid seems to be working wonders! Capitalism is so cool

[–] stigsbandit34z@hexbear.net 3 points 2 years ago

That’s why I personally don’t want to have kids. Considering the state of labor in the west, how are parents supposed to be able to spend time with their kids? Granted when I was growing up, my mom always stayed at home because she could. She didn’t have to work because my dad made more than enough to provide for a family on a single income (pre-2008 recession).

Stay at home moms have to be hella rare in this age of rampant exploitation, so I have no idea how kids are being raised. Add on the fact that there’s no guaranteed parental leave in amerikkka and I’m at a complete loss

[–] berrytopylus@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago

Parents are essential for student growth and education but that doesn't make them responsible for all of it. The entire point of school is to take on the the major burden of teaching kids with expertise and efficiency and providing a place for children to be with other children.

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[–] polskilumalo@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 years ago

I've just binged the whole podcast and Jesus Christ what a roller coaster.

You americans have had it bad before this Mary Clay cue shit was started to get outlawed.

Good thing I was taught Polish reading as a kid with phonics due to how simple it is, similar to spanish 1 character 1 sound. Except when it is a diagraph, which even then have a consistent sound to them most of the time.

"Grzecznie" and "Przenieś" would be examples of that, but nonetheless.

What a fucking shit system spearheaded by well meaning, ideology trash can eating, dumbass liberals and capitalists with money to earn by sacrificing kids... More reasons why being born in Poland maybe wasn't so bad after all.

[–] sammer510@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

This is really fascinating stuff. It explains a lot of things I've noticed about other people in my life I've known who are poor readers. I've always been a great reader for as long as I can remember, had parents who helped teach me to read and read with me and all that which can help a lot. The "incorrect" way that school are teaching to kids is to basically guess what words means instead of trying to memorize the phonetic pronunciation of individual words to commit them to memory. I remember in high school there being activities where we would go around the room and different students would read different parts of like a book or textbook out loud. And as someone lucky enough to have learned how to read well, I was always flabbergasted when I would hear some people read. I'd be reading along in the book and thinking "what the fuck, they're saying words that aren't even on this page. How is this even possible to mess up this badly that you're not just mispronouncing words you're literally inserting words out of nowhere" and the research would suggest that's its because they were literally just reading the first part of the word and guessing the rest of it. Zero, like, base line understanding of what letter combinations make what sounds. No wonder some people hate reading it's basically playing a guessing game 😳

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[–] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I think adult illiteracy is pretty high in the U.S. as well. I have had multiple middle managers who cannot write a coherent paragraph to save their lives, to the degree that I have had to go literally ask them what they mean because otherwise it would be reading tea leaves.

Even worse is people who are lifer manual laborers, they can be very smart and great with their hands, but ask them to read something above very basic text and their eyes just glaze over. Something has gone seriously wrong here.

[–] neo@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

79% of American adults are literate. When I learned that recently I thought that had to be some kind of mistake. It can't be that fucking low, right? But it is.

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[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

parenti

Insert Parenti Cuban literacy quote here

[–] emizeko@hexbear.net 5 points 2 years ago (7 children)

this one?

You can look at any existing socialist country— if you don’t want to call them socialist, call them whatever you want. Post capitalist— whatever, I don’t care. Call them camels or window shades, it doesn’t matter as long as we know the countries we’re talking about. If you look at any one of those countries, you can evaluate them in several ways. One is comparing them to what they had before, and that to me is what’s very compelling. That’s what so compelling about Cuba, for instance. When I was in Cuba I was up in the Escambia, which is like the Appalachia of Cuba, very rugged mountains with people who were poor, or they were. And I said to this campesino, I said, “Do you like Fidel?” and he said “Si si, with all my soul.” I remember this gesture, with all our souls. I said “Why?” and he pointed to this clinic right up on the hill which we had visited. He said, “Look at that.” He said “Before the revolution, we never saw a doctor. If someone was seriously ill, it would take twenty people to carry that person, it’d go day and night. It would take two days to get to the hospital. First because it was far away and second because you couldn’t go straight, you couldn’t cross the latifundia lands, the boss would kill you. So, you had to go like this, and often when we got to the hospital, the person might be dead by the time we got there. Now we have this clinic up here with a full-time doctor. And today in Cuba when you become a doctor you got to spend two years out in the country, that’s your dedication to the people. And a dentist that comes one day a week. And for serious things, we’re not more than 20 minutes away from a larger hospital. That’s in the Escambia. So that’s freedom. We’re freer today, we have more life.” And I talked to a guy in Havana who says to me “All I used to see here in Havana, you call this drab and dull, we see it as a cleaner city. It’s true, the paint is peeling off the walls, but you don’t see kids begging in the streets anymore and you don’t see prostitutes.” Prostitution used to be one of the biggest industries. And today this man is going to night school. He said “I could read! I can read, do you know what it means to be able to read? Do you know what it means to be able not to read?” I remember when I gave my book to my father. I dedicated a book of mine to him, “Power and the Powerless” to my father, I said “To my father with my love,” I gave him a copy of the book, he opened it up and looked at it. He had only gone to the seventh grade, he was the son of an immigrant, a working-class Italian. He opens the book and he starts looking through it, and he gets misty-eyed, very misty-eyed. And I thought it was because he was so touched that his son had dedicated a book to him. That wasn’t the reason. He looks up to me and he says ‘I can’t read this, kid” I said “That’s okay dad, neither can the students, don’t worry about that. I mean I wrote it for you, it’s your book and you don’t have to read it. It’s a very complicated book, an academic book. He says, “I can’t read this book.” And the defeat. The defeat that man felt. That’s what illiteracy is about, that’s what the joy of literacy programs is. That’s why you have people in Nicaragua walking proud now for the first time. They were treated like animals before, they weren’t allowed to read, they weren’t taught to read. So, you compare a country from what it came from, with all it’s imperfections. And those who demand instant perfection the day after the revolution, they go up and say “Are there civil liberties for the fascists? Are they gonna be allowed their newspapers and their radio programs, are they gonna be able to keep all their farms? The passion that some of our liberals feel, the day after the revolution, the passion and concern they feel for the fascists, the civil rights and civil liberties of those fascists who are dumping and destroying and murdering people before. Now the revolution has gotta be perfect, it’s gotta be flawless. Well that isn’t my criteria, my criteria is what happens to those people who couldn’t read? What happens to those babies that couldn’t eat, that died of hunger? And that’s why I support revolution. The revolution that feeds the children gets my support. Not blindly, not unqualified. And the Reaganite government that tries to stop that kind of process, that tries to keep those people in poverty and illiteracy and hunger, that gets my undiluted animosity and opposition.

—Michael Parenti

[–] SuperZutsuki@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago

Always gets me teary eyed kitty-cri

[–] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 4 points 2 years ago

lmao dam these days I can't read Parenti without tearing up

That part about his father is straight up my grandmother, she can't read, not even her native language, because the French colonialists never taught her

Fuck any liberal who stands in the way of global revolution

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