Hundreds of refugees died on a ship this week and we can't stop talking about some random billionaires who died doing something not very bright.
this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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I've seen coverage of both. We can talk about two things at once.
Doubt.
Which part? I've been paying attention to the refuge crisis and deaths in the Mediterranean for years. My boyfriend is from the region and is very passionate about it and involved. I've been posting about it on reddit since before the submersible mishap. I can be interested in multiple things.
I know a lot of people (not here necessarily) have been commenting on how these were rich people, but regardless of their financial situation they were just people first. I don't know anything about them and that being the case I'm going with this being a tragedy. I feel for the families that were left behind.
TBH what gets me angry is the fact literally less than a week before the single biggest sea faring tragedy that hit the Mediterranean sea, and easily one of the top 20 straight up sea tragedy in recent memory happened and literally nobody gave nor is giving a shit.
A boat full of migrants sunk between Greece and Italy, 80 have been confirmed dead, more than 500 are missing, and the worst is, the boat was being surveilled the entire time by Frontex and the Greek coast guard who straight up lied (or chose not to see) the distress the ship was in.
I can understand people lashing out at the death of rich people driven largely by their hubris and trusting a downright irresponsible psycho. In some way its a shadenfreude-like feeling over the overt and indirect violence that average people experience compared to that of the rich. It's distasteful to be sure, but it is what it is. In an unjust society both the exploitor and the exploited are pushed to brutish, revengeful, detached feelings towards one another and broader ressentiment. The solution is the end of exploitation.
The main difference here is their families had the money to fund the publicity and search efforts. The Refugees on that boat that sunk didn't have anyone rich that cared about them.
As a rule, I don't compare tragedies by the number of bodies, but I agree with you. It's distasteful, but it is what it is.
It reminds me of the devastating floods in Pakistan that got some attention for sure, but nothing compared to the billions of dollars that was donated within hours of the Notre Dame fire.
You're correct. I feel far worse for the refugees than the billionaires in the sub. But that being said i feel awful for the 19 year old on that ship. I know i would have said yes too because how many people can say "im going on holiday to the titanic" sounds great in concept. He may have been a rich kid but still a kid.
He is 19, he should be old enough to come to a reasonable conclusion that his family if profiting off of the suffering of the Pakistani people. He lived overseas, far away from the problem and I bet if you find his social media pages they are full of expensive things that you would never be able to get in Pakistan.
Edit- it’s very evident that none of you have lived in an impoverished country before. I hate to use this word, but the privilege here is palpable.
He is 19, he should be old enough to come to a reasonable conclusion that his family if profiting off of the suffering of the Pakistani people.
No, he shouldn't be. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
And you know so much more than be because?
Because your mom, bro
I'm out of the loop, can you explain what you mean when you specify Pakistani people? I've read very little about this incident as I think many have, only learning about it incidentally when happening across posts like this.
The 19 year old everyone is so sad about, his father is very high up in the leadership of the largest company in Pakistan. Most people here seem to have no clue about how impoverish countries work, but for one person/family to accumulate so much wealth when the people of that country are very poor mean they are exploiting the people and the resources of the country for their own gain.
I don’t think people would be so upset about the young adult if this was a child from the Sachmans, or the Waltons.
If we're gonna gatekeep the rationale of feeling conflicted over a young person's death because they've crossed a benchmark where they're supposed to be aware that the environment they're a product of is exploitative and reject that, I think that benchmark should be older than 19. When I was 19 I was a fucking idiot
Once you are 18, you are expected to be able to take care of yourself to some degree and think for yourself. And as he comes from a very rich family, I find it hard to believe that he isn’t educated in a good school (non secondary). Should we also raise the voting age everywhere as well if all 19 year old are fucking idiots?
I see, thank you for explaining further. Agreed with the Sachman and Walton sentiment. 19 is certainly old enough to know what your father does, and with his wealth and no doubt stellar education he could start his own cushy life without using his dad's exploitation money.
Exactly! There are so many 19 year olds who are inspirational to the people around him, and he could have chosen to be one of them. But instead he was living the fancy life he wanted.
Before wreckage found: We hear banging every 30 minutes
After wreckage found: We heard a big pop on Sunday
This is actually quite normal, and similar situations have occurred during search and rescues for missing submarines. The ocean carries sound quite well, and hydrophones will inevitably pick up noises of from all sorts of of things if observed for long enough. Add into that the extra noises of the all the search and rescue assets in the vicinity and the natural biases of the human operators to want to decipher patterns from the background noise; false positives are quite typical.
A similar situation happened with the sinking of the USS Thresher. https://www.forces.net/usa/banging-sounds-heard-during-search-sunken-us-submarine-uss-thresher
So, I understand that because water is not compressible, animals without air in their bodies are safe at such high pressures in the deep sea, but what I'm wondering is what would it look like if a human in the deep sea was suddenly exposed to those pressures, as would happen if a submarine rapidly pressurizes? I know the lungs would collapse and whatnot because the air would be pressurized into I'm guessing a liquid, like how propane sloshes when under pressure in a tank, but what else? What causes the instant death? Maybe the water shoots into nose/mouth so fast it acts like a bullet and applies a bunch of force to the walls internally?
During the implosion you’ll have to contend with the walls of the sub and the water rushing it at a high percentage of mach 1 if not at supersonic speeds. That includes shards of carbon fibre and the big heavy titanium end plates. The air bubble inside will also be compressed to well above 400 atmospheres as the inertia of the incoming water causes an over pressure scenario. This compression heats up that air bubble to temperatures were a plasma is formed and for a brief moment the imploding sub would be the only visible light source down there. Basically anyone in there at the time is converted to a red mist. Think A-train running through that chick at the start of the boys, or that kid flying through that sheriff in brightburn for an idea of the result.
You know, if I were ever to go down to the depth of the ocean with my friends and family on board to see the Titanic, I would make sure that the vehicle I'm riding in is overbuilt for safety and that everything that could go wrong is considered beforehand.
Why take any risk at all? With the amount of money that they had they could have hired an entire crew of an actual submarine for a day or two.
They understood the risks; there is no question in my mind that they didn't. I think they were bored with what life could offer them with that much money. At a certain point you really can basically experience it all. Instead of going on a tested rocket ship; they gambled the ultimate wager. Their life or bragging rights. Image the tale you could tell coming back from the journey in such a rigged tube; or the publicity of your fatal demise and making a "historical" moment regarding it. The world was watching. Darkly their death reads better than any final service of passing or headstone does.
There’s something inherently dangerous about rare, exclusive experiences. When millions of people do something, like fly commercial, you know it’s going to be pretty safe. When you find yourself going for an experience that only 6 people have ever had, ever, your danger warnings should be going off.
And you get astronauts who spend years embedded with the development of their rocket or capsule. You can doing something that no one else has done before but you want to do your homework.
Do you feel you could make those determinations? I couldn’t. Have you done so for your car? I haven’t. It’s all too common for us to trust that other people know what they’re doing. You can’t always check everything.
I don't personally think this vessel passed the eye test, though. The CBS reporter who took the trip even seemed to call it out in his segment (though he still got in it)
I think about all the previous people who got to go see the titanic, and learned today that they were in a death trap.
At least they didn't have to suffer for any stretch of time, I hope.
According to submariners in other communities, the worst part would be any period of time where they knew they were sinking. That could be an hour of slowly falling from periscope depth or no time at all if the hull failed at a deep enough depth. The water forms a piston much like one in a truck engine that compresses the air enough to cause combustion. Any of the three things in that nano second will kill you before your body can process the information. The water hammer, the pressure shift, and the implosion all occur too quickly for the nerves to transmit the information.
There’s a whole lot of hindsight happening in this thread. “They should have known. They ignored the risks. I would have done better.”
If James Cameron had died on his deep sea expedition, people would have said all the same things. He didn’t, so we all just lauded him for being a badass.
Hindsight is 20/20!
Except James Cameron didn't willfully ignore the existing collective knowledge of the industry, did not set out to completely ignore basic safety in the name of "innovation" (read: being a cheap ass), didn't actively fire people who gave the slightest shit about safety, the list goes on and on and on. The CEO was some techbro moron who payed for his own hubris. It's unfortunate anyone but him had to die to prove literally everyone but him right, except maybe the two millionaires being the incarnation of bourgeois stupidity and hubris too.
I feel bad for the french oceanographer and the 19 year old. I sneer at the two billionaires. I laugh at the CEO. I also feel bad for the taxpayers who had to shell out millions of dollar in the rescue effort, a rescue which honestly, while legally necessary, was morally arguable given the track record of the company to shit all over government regulations. At least their death was humane and quick (instantaneous really)
Ditto on feeling badly for the 19 year old. His aunt said he was terrified to go, but he went with his dad since it was Father's Day weekend.
Ufff I didn't have that info :(
Poor kid
This just destroyed me.
Anyway, what did everybody have for lunch today?
Stirfry noodles with broccoli and chicken. My wife made it.
Am curious how long this has been there and whether perhaps the "banging" was not related whatsoever.
I believe they confirmed in the press conference the bangs were not related due to where the debris was found.
They did.
The underwater banging noises that were picked up by the authorities earlier this week do not appear to have had any relation to the site of the submersible’s wreckage. “There doesn’t appear to be any connection between the noises and the location on the sea floor” where the debris was found, Mauger said. Previously, the Coast Guard had said that they repositioned their search efforts around where those noises were detected.
So if they weren't related, then what were they?
This is the real mystery.
Extra noises of the all the search and rescue assets in the vicinity and the natural biases of the human operators to want to decipher patterns from the background noises = false positives. There's precedent for that:
https://www.forces.net/usa/banging-sounds-heard-during-search-sunken-us-submarine-uss-thresher