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This whole situation is just ludicrous. We should all be wearing t-shirts with euphemisms like "From the puddle to the pond", "From the sink to the bathtub", "From the creek to the brine", "From the jug to the lake" (can you think of others?). See if they arrest us all.
"From the Muslim to the guillotine."? See, hate speech is bad.
The only one sharing hate speech around here is you.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
The point is that slogan is considered hateful to some. It's considered to be calling for terrible things. You probably don't mean it that way (I hope), but knowing how offensive it is to others, why would you keep using it?
Because the people claiming they find it hateful are doing so performatively in order to restrict just criticism of their favourite country's genocidal actions. Or are being earnest, but have been tricked into believing it is offensive by the former group. Either way, the outcome is a pro-genocide one.
No, it reinforces the notion that the Jews in Isreal are in existential danger and that leads to their right to defend themselves and that leads to their twisted justification of attacking Palestine civilians.
I'm confused. Your comment starts with "no", and then basically restates what I said.
No because it's not 'performative'. They are offended at the call to kill all Jews (how they see the phrase). And then that muddies the water on Israeli 'defense'. If others are 'tricked' into believing that meaning to the phrase, then the phrase has that meaning regardless. And people using it know what it is interpreted as. They only keep using it because they want to convey that meaning while. Like racist assholes saying 'all lives matter'.
They are offended at the call to kill all Jews (how they see the phrase).
Right but that goes to the second category. There are two groups: the performative ones and the tricked ones. Because the phrase doesn't mean "kill all Jews". That's a lie made up by Israel propaganda to justify the genocide.
"All lives matter" was a phrase deliberately used to undermine the notion that "black lives matter". That's not what's going on here. "From the river to the sea" is the equivalent of black lives matter. It's the call for freedom against oppression.
It's not really a stretch tho is it. Chants of 'death to Israel', 'death to America' are common in the Arab world. Or do those have some nice meaning too?
Different chants made in different countries are not relevant to "from the river to the sea" chanted in Australia. Your comment is a complete non-sequitur.
'From the river to the sea ...' is also chanted in Gaza and other places. Yes different people interpret it differently. But the key point is that a significant number of people see it as a call for the destruction of Isreal and the genocide of the Jews there. So if you don't want that to be what you are saying, then avoid the phrase. Or don't, whatever, but suck it up if you are then labeled as a genocide supporter.
So why are you using it?
As a point. I've got nothing against Muslims, I just know it's a eye catcher in this context. If that 'slogan' is hate speech and is bad (it is) then so is the other slogan. I made the point because you seem to think the other slogan is no big deal. But it is to some people. I won't elaborate or I'll probably get banned from this sub for having such a centralist/moderate attitude.
CF, please look at Zagorath's comment. Also, do some research and you'll find that these words and variations thereof have been used by Israelis as well for their purposes.
Palestinian use is about becoming free of oppression and genocide. Israeli use is about taking as much as they can from whoever they can with biblical justification which is more than questionable. Your slogan is plain provocation to violence and execution of a particular religious group.
You are assigning how people should interpret these things. We should try to understand how people do interpret things. And avoid things that are offensive.
I don't think it should be criminal tho.
Perhaps if there wasn't so much whipped-up stir about this phrase, including criminalisation for saying it, it would not provoke people to want to say it more. Imo if you coerce people you are going to get more push-back, whether openly or not.
I think there should be attention to the phrase, and education as to how it is interpreted to mean 'death to Jews'. Just like people needed an education to understand why 'all lives matter' is offensive in the context of elevated killings of blacks by police. Someone using the n-word for blacks even if they consider it a harmless synonym doesn't make it ok. Of course, It shouldn't be illegal. But people should know how what they're saying is interpreted. If they really want to go ahead and cause shit, it's more likely to backfire against their cause anyway.
I think most people use the phrase to mean that Palestinians should be free in their land and not be under continuous attack. The interpretation you speak of is laboured. I believe jailing people for saying the 'forbidden phrase' is the real shit. As you'll see from another post in this community, people are starting to get punished and even losing jobs for wearing a keffiyeh. So, will they start jailing us too for using non-verbal language deemed offensive?
Symbols mean different things to different people. Why use a symbol that has bad connotations to some? Even if you're a Buddhist, you wouldn't display a swastika in the West because you know it offends many. You would display a swastika knowing it offends if you are a Nazi supporter; and then you might claim it was a peace symbol as cover. Thats what using the phrase seems like. I would fire someone for wearing a swastika.
I forgot to mention that if you are interested in a Jewish point of view which differs from the mainstream one we are being made to believe applies to all Jews, have a look at Antony Lowenstein on YouTube. He is an Australian Jewish journalist who grapples with the issues that affect his community and all of us in the current world situation.
The swastika goes further back than Buddhism. The difference in using the swastika symbol as used in recent history to displaying a watermelon picture for example, is that the former was used to entrance people to take part in beliefs and actions that actively sought to destroy other people for the sake of racial and national self-aggrandisement. In my view the Palestinian symbols and phrases indicate taking back what was yours in the first place and being free to enjoy it. The swastika is about colonising by force of which you could say the same about the Israeli flag yet no one seems to care about that.
I do understand your argument but cannot be convinced. And btw, some Jews are offended by the pro-Palestinian freedom slogans and symbols but some Jews agree with them. Let's not put all Jewish people in the same basket. The Jewish community is very diverse. Zionists loudly object because it goes against their political and colonialist agenda but many Jews don't.
It's always a grim reality check to see how easily foreign nations influence Australia. I hope everyone doubles down and keeps saying the phrase.
I often used to wonder how Australia had never gone the way of America in many things. It now seems that they were just a few years behind them.
It now seems that they were just a few years behind them.
Australians have known this phenomenon for a long time.