this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2023
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[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 160 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Men of quality do not fear equality.

[–] spaxxor@lemmy.world 20 points 2 years ago

This is in my top ten favorite quotes.

[–] bouh@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I wouldn't call a skilled gamer a man of quality though, not without more informations about him...

[–] Fapp@lemmynsfw.com 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Anyone who can play support all day is a god

[–] uis@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Medic mains are gods confirmed.

AFAIR I have most hours as Medic in TF2.

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[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 95 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Ain't just gaming. I dropped a note on a home tech forum while being visibly female and very rapidly realised i'd forgotten how fucking neckbeardy rank amateurs are

I've been a network/systems engineer for 25 years, my fellow pros would never be so gauche.

Except dev.

[–] gkd@lemmy.ml 30 points 2 years ago

It’s weird with devs. Most of us are fine but there’s definitely a sizable number of “tech bros” that absolutely are misogynistic. And it’s probably worse than I realize not being the target of it.

[–] rediot@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Rather ironically, I'm actually married to a dev

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 13 points 2 years ago

instructions unclear, husband now caught in ceiling fan ranting about SEO

[–] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Also, a disturbing number of misogynistic people in web design/web dev needing help from technical support. It was rather shocking and educational for me, as a cis male, to work as a support supervisor. I never anticipated the level of sexism and harassment that my female techs faced on a daily basis.

Everything from asking of they want to do porn to "can I talk to a man". I had several techs that had to change the names that they used for customer communications to male or neutral ones due to the severity on the unending sexism despite regular warnings to the customers that this behavior would not be tolerated.

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Working sysadmin gets you four times more abuse because it's the crux of 'mean person won't let my idiot arse run rampant on a system because they're mean and i hate them' and 'fuck youse wimmen don't tell me what to fucking do'

[–] jcdenton@lemy.lol 67 points 2 years ago (1 children)

All I heard was men submissive to men

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Low elo men confirmed biddable and breedable

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[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 53 points 2 years ago

Nobody fears competition more than the mediocre who only get by on the weight of their privilege.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.ml 44 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Hasn't evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

I think it's much easier to say that dudes have it hammered into their heads that girls are bad at games, so when they underperform and a girl is on their team, they feel emasculated. This isn't too far off from when dudes end up losing their 'bread winner' status in their relationship. They were told they had explicit traits to exhibit and they failed to do so, so it hits them in their self esteem. Classic fragile masculinity.

Patriarchal conditioning makes way more sense than "caveman brain HATE competing with woman!".

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 18 points 2 years ago

Yeah, the problem is it slips too easily into essentialism. "Oh we evolved this way, nothing we can do about it I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Especially for questions like this, which could pretty easily be explained by cultural influences, no need to bring evolution into it.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago

Hasn't evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

It's not without a good heap of criticism, that's for damn sure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology

I tend to think the social angle is more credible Because the behavior of being a dick to female-sounding voices in games is not a universal behavior. Those who aren't misogynists don't act that way. How strange.

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The entire field of evolutionary psychology debunked? Do you mean the idea that our brains are subject to evolutionary forces like every other part of our anatomy? No, not debunked.

This is conflating specific methodological problems with theoretical claims. Yes, many have criticized the game theoretical methodology typical of evolutionary psychology. There are a lot of highly speculative junk claims out there. It’s also true that some (not all or even most!) cognitive scientists think that we cannot take the perspective that psychology evolved at all. But it is certainly untrue that there is some consensus that evolutionary psychology has been “debunked”.

This criticism is also a bit ironic given the highly speculative nature of the claims you put forward. Your guess sounds plausible I suppose, but I see no reason to think it’s any more methodologically rigorous.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Show me a prediction it makes

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago (7 children)

That’s not how science works. I understand that you’re trying to criticize the field, but lack of predictions, even reliable ones, is not itself a problem it has. For one thing, even false theories can make reliable predictions, like Levoisier’s defunct theory of caloric in the 18th century which has now been replaced by modern thermodynamics. The caloric theory can be used to make mathematically accurate predictions, but the underlying theory is still wrong.

Similarly, evo psych can make a lot of reliable predictions without saying anything true. On the contrary, one criticism of the field is that it’s unfalsifiable because an evolutionary theory can always (allegedly) be proposed to fit the data. Which is to say, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

One example: it is proposed that the fusiform face area of the brain is a domain specific module evolved for face detection. It’s present in other animals that recognize conspecifics by their face. In humans, damage to the area leads to face specific agnosia. The theory makes accurate predictions, but is it true? It’s still being debated.

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[–] PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES@lib.lgbt 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If you raise a group of human children without ever exposing them to language, they'll invent their own.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago (6 children)
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[–] Hundun@beehaw.org 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I was about to point this out - evopsych is an essentialist pseudoscience. Human interactions are governed by culture at least as much as they are by biology.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago

Human interactions are governed by culture at least as much as they are by biology.

And evolutionary psychology is not claiming that it isn't. Your strawman is essentialist pseudoscience, agreed.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Hasn’t evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

No. On the most basic level it shouldn't really be terribly contentious that evolution has an impact on psychology, on a more detailed level, well, they have their hits and misses just as every other field.

Patriarchal conditioning makes way more sense than

...case in point "everything is socially constructed" is just as bonkers a position as "everything is biologically predetermined". Why do people have to universalise their specialised area of investigation and “caveman brain HATE competing with woman!” is a rather cartoonish take on evolutionary psychology. If anything it'd be "young male annoyed he can't hunt for shit while female age-peer can because he wouldn't be able to provide for her while heavily pregnant". Note that not being annoyed in that case doesn't require better hunting skills, only sufficient ones, and "annoyed" can lead to "will work harder on his skills" or "is going to lash out" or "becomes depressive and walks into the desert" or "is going to look around, see all those capable hunters, and focus on hut building instead". There's a fuckton of behavioural flexibility left there.

Bad social conditioning then comes into that and shapes tendencies into caricatures of themselves, or good social conditioning comes in and, well, does good things. It's not an either/or thing, pretty much everything is both nature and nurture.

[–] reric88@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Idk man. I am shoving respect into my son's head at all times, I show respect and love to my wife/his mom all the time, and he is misogynistic AF. I don't get it. I am trying so hard to raise him to be respectful towards women and he just doesn't accept it.

He's 7, ADHD, Autistic, etc. But I really don't know if that even has anything to do with it because I am, too.

I wouldn't say it's been debunked. Probably improbable, but in no way debunked

[–] zepheriths@lemmy.world 44 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)
[–] Synthuir@lemmy.ml 29 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] dil@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

There's further discussion in the second link where the original authors stand by their claim.

The two use different statistical methods to try to demonstrate the conclusion, and that's where the difference lies.

I'm not a big stats person, but I'm coming away feeling like the original claim is valid since a) it was shown in two different models the original author used and b) it makes intuitive sense to me.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 years ago

Talk about being the change you want to see in the world. Thanks for the link, I appreciate it

[–] AceQuorthon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 34 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Loser gamers are mad screaming chimpanzees confirmed

[–] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

What I would be really interested in, is how does it play out in reversed scenarios.

How do inexperienced women react to a singular man commenting in a competitive area that is female dominated, do you see the sane sorr of vitriol from lower performing women, vs welcoming behavior from better performing women?

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 2 years ago

Well if you want a reversal you need to be true to the parameters: get an experienced male operating - not commenting - and you need to do so NOT in an area dominated by women.

Because the gender split in gaming is almost 50/50. A 1% difference is negligible

[–] whome@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Well in my observation the weaker players are quite often the more toxic ones. The "what a safe" spammers in rocket league are often the ones getting carried.

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[–] morphballganon@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

Scrub == scrub

Got it

[–] calypsopub@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I disagree with the conclusion. My experience is anecdotal, of course, but I'll share. I'm a gamer female with a husband and grown son. Husband is gone now, but the three of us gamed quite extensively together and separately for years, playing various MMORPGs and MOBAs, among other things. My son is exceptionally good at gaming, I am mediocre and consider myself a proud "filthy casual," and my husband was absolute dogshit - to the point I had to leave my chair and go help him by taking over the controls to get him past certain difficult hurdles (and my son does the same for me on occasion).

My husband's ego was never threatened by this. He never took his frustration out on me. Why? Because he was a decent person who was confident in his masculinity.

In the end, lack of skill does not cause misogyny. I believe misogyny springs from the same source as the lack of skill: a tiny brain.

[–] adeoxymus@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

Not saying I agree or disagree with the author. However you being his wife did not result in "female-initiated disruption of a male hierarchy" (their words) so it's not really an argument against their hypothesis.

(Of course your husband being nice and not a dickhead probably also plays a role)

[–] uis@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

TLDR: correlation != causattion

[–] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Yeah but I doubt your husband would flame you because you 360 no scoped him, becsuse you are also within shoe throwing range

[–] sirico@feddit.uk 8 points 2 years ago

That's a rock fact

[–] theneverfox@pawb.social 8 points 2 years ago
[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago

Evo Psych is a garbage field for frauds but I would buy insecure dudes expressing more misogyny.

[–] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

The study for anyone interested.

There's a bunch of articles written about the study. As much of a shitshow as you'd expect.

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