@TheTechnician27@lemmy.world has been kind enough to explain their reasoning for downvoting 312 posts in the ketogenic/carnivore/metabolic health communities.
Original comment here : https://lemmy.world/post/29412312/17026044
I thought I would respond to the points they raise here
Yep, I mass-downvoted the posts in those communities you run (I read every one of them before downvoting looking for anything even vaguely medically sound), because everything I saw existed solely to spread health disinformation in the form of the so-called “carnivore diet”.
They read every post, and claim they are misinformation? Including the peer reviewed papers published in reputable journals? Every post in !metabolic_health@lemm.ee is a peer reviewed publication. Reading 312 posts over a single hour is impressive, considering the links to books and journals brings the total reading to nearly a thousand pages of written dense text.
Only you post to these cesspits; they’re your own little microblog wall instead of a community, and they exist solely as a platform for you to spread known health disinformation. Meaningfully engaging on those communities would only add fuel to the dumpster fire you’ve created, like how engaging with other types of crackpot only amplifies their message.
Clearly their biases preceded their review. They are on a mission, no intention to think or engage.
The carnivore diet is widely debunked pseudoscientific nonsense which directly contradicts the continually strengthening scientific consensus that reducing animal products promotes better long-term health and
The consensus statement is their own post defending their own PBF diet. Even if this was a professional consensus statement - well read professionals can disagree, and consensus doesn't cause other interpretations to be misinformation.
which is well-known to considerably elevate the risk of chronic diseases like heart disease and cancer compared to a typical omnivorous diet.
The evidence is "well-known", I assume they are inferring a link to associative longitudinal studies against a unhealthy population and hence massive healthy user bias.
Since they have read all the posts they already know the counter factuals to refute that statement.
One major confounder I don't think they considered is that carnivore is zero-carbohydrate. Which means a entirely different metabolism. i.e. Zero-Carb carnivores would agree a corn dog is unhealthy, its carbohydrates!
Full disclosure: I’m a vegan, and obviously I don’t like this on ethical grounds, but what you’re doing ethically to the animals or the environment isn’t all that much worse than a typical western omnivorous diet; I care, but if this were about my pro-animal activism, I would post on /c/vegan and have 10x the impact for animal ethics than I could downvoting niche communities. No, what this is about is that you’re slowly killing yourself through your delusions (fine) and then trying to trick other people to follow suit by couching your claims in half-truths and the medicalese analogue of a sovereign citizen’s legalese.
If people find success on their current metabolism, I'm genuinely happy for them. Keep it up. If people are not getting the outcomes they want, they need to experiment on themselves and try something different.
My Going Carnivore - Decision Tree Covers my philosophy in detail, and remember they said they had read it, including the part about metabolic options and veganism already.
There is no clinical evidence that the carnivore diet provides any health benefits.[3][17][18] Dietitians dismiss the carnivore diet as an extreme fad diet,[3][4] which has attracted criticism from dietitians and physicians as being potentially dangerous to health (see Meat § Health).[15][17][18]
I'm not sure of the source for the quote they are providing. Carnivore being a subset of a ketogenic eating pattern provides all the established benefits of a ketogenic metabolism. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/skeptical-doctors
With the added benefit of being very simple, easy to maintain, and eliminating any possible plant intolerance some people have. This is why it is very useful as a elimination diet tool.
It also raises levels of LDL cholesterol, which increases the risk of cardiovascular disease.[4] While carnivore diets exclude fruits and vegetables which supply micronutrients, they are also low in dietary fiber, possibly causing constipation.[4][7][5] A carnivore diet high in red meat increases the risks of colon cancer and gout.[7][31][32] The high protein intake of a carnivore diet can lead to impaired kidney function.[33]
Again I don't know the source of this quote, but its full of the common myths.
LDL, and cholesterol, is not a disease. Its a necessary part of our biology and we would die without it. Paper - LDL-C does not cause cardiovascular disease: a comprehensive review of the current literature - 2018 Only very lean people demonstrate a increase in LDL on keto, the research about LDL being protective exists, and there is ongoing publications about this specific phenotype - the lean mass hyper responders. https://hackertalks.com/post/8680045
possibly causing constipation.
Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation and its associated symptoms
Opposite actually, zero fibre diets resolve constipation
slide
Hilariously, this is a generous summary: Wikipedia is almost too brief about these health problems (and excludes some), and as more people like you follow this fad diet, information is likely to keep coming out about how badly it wrecks your long-term health
I can't find this paper, I checked libgen and sci-hub. I can't respond to it if I cant read it. I suspect this means the poster didn't read it either.....
Carnivore is not a fad diet, there are zero nutritional deficients as demonstrated by the well documented pre-westernized Inuit populations. Can a carnivore diet provide all essential nutrients? - 2020
Unlike you, I’m a vegan for ethical reasons, and so I take health information about my diet as it comes: B12, iron, and zinc deficiency substantially more likely in vegans? Cool. Vitamin D and calcium? Cool. More likely to fracture a bone? Cool. Harder to get a good daily intake of protein (~0.8–1.0g/kg)? Cool. Harder to get lysine for a complete protein? Cool. Dairy fat intake may lower all-cause mortality? Cool. I recognize these, try to compensate for them in my own diet, and also recognize the numerous health benefits of a PBD (especially with whole foods), but I loudly advertise pros and cons to people looking at veganism for their health.
I'm glad you found a pattern that works for your health goals and your philosophical goals. My Going Carnivore - Decision Tree also talks about the pros and cons in detail. Given that they said they had read it I must not have written it clearly enough - the point they are making only makes sense if they didn't see it.
I almost always recommend the Mediterranean diet and DASH alongside a plant-based one if someone is concerned only about their health. If I can be intellectually honest about the science in spite of a deeply held ethical philosophy making me want a plant-based diet to be near-universally followable, I expect you to be able to do the same for your fad.
Great, common ground! The Mediterranean eating pattern includes keto. i.e. all the guides on Mediterranen keto https://hackertalks.com/post/10268970
The poster indicates I'm being dishonest about tradeoffs.... "I expect you to be able to do the same for your fad." I literally list the tradeoffs in the pinned post, which they read and downvoted. https://hackertalks.com/post/5730540
What’s especially troubling is that sometimes you’re taking real public health problems – ultra-processed foods, refined grains, hyperpalatable foods loaded with sugar, etc. – and using that to manufacture opportunistic FUD: “Oh, this isn’t the fault of imbalanced diets full of trash; my fad diet is the only way to fix it”.
- Not a fad.
- I never said keto/carnivore is the only way to fix problems. Hell I disclose whole foods and vegan are good options for people in the Going Carnivore post, which they read and downvoted.
- The imbalance and trash in the diet in my view is the carbohydrates! That causes insulin to really get out of balance.
I would’ve done the same thing if someone started /c/smokingsaves and talked about how smoking a pack a day is great for your health and in fact the decline in smoking is what’s elevating cancer diagnoses. Your trash is federated to Lemmy.World, where Rule 8.1 prohibits health disinformation; it’s also just completely disgusting to spread it in the first place. You’re more than welcome to downvote all of my posts in /c/vegan (if I try to run to the LW admins claiming harassment, link them to this comment), except unlike you, I do my best not to platform pseudoscientific horseshit.
I'm happy to read all the non-epidemological low-risk factor publications on my dietary patterns (keto, carnivore). I'm happy to discuss them in earnest. I have no interest in downvoting everything in c/vegan. It's not why I'm here. I'm not offended that vegans exist. Lemmy has 75ish vegan communities, but the poster here cannot suffer us one carnivore community.
PS: Sorry for linking to your mortal enemy, the American Heart Association.
I'm happy to read their publications too, but I'm mostly interested in foundational research and not expert opinions (as I've already cited other expert opinions above demonstrating there is not consensus)
If you look at the AHA donor list, you might see some money that could influence their published expert opinions. https://www.heart.org/-/media/Files/Finance/Pharma-Funding-Disclosure-Fiscal202021-FINAL-4122.pdf
One massive problem with Keto / Carnivore is there is no pill to sell, no subscription... its just eat unprocessed low carbohydrate food and be healthy. No sexy sales agents are going to take doctors out to lunch explaining it, no media campaign pushing it.
FWIW I've actually read everything I cite and reference. I'm happy to discuss any of the references in depth.
LDL is not a disease, its necessary for human life. Damaged (Oxidated, and Glycated) LDL is a indicator of significant cardiovascular problem, but undamaged LDL is not a disease. If someone has elevated LDL and they are not eating a sugar heavy diet, they should get plaque imaging to see what their actual atherosclerotic risk is.