this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
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chapotraphouse

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https://sh.itjust.works/post/4274675

To this I say, no. As a community, we do not deny proven genocides, like the holocaust, or the genocide against indigenous Americans by various European colonizers, or the genocide against the Congolese by Belgium, or the Bengal famine that was carried out by the British empire. In fact, denying those genocides will get you banned, here. However: we are also aware of a tendency of nations to project their crimes onto others, and to manufacture atrocity propaganda to justify overthrowing or destroying rival governments... like Libya in 2011:

From Washington Bullets by Vijay Prashad (a great book I highly recommend)

A post from Michael Parenti regarding the destruction of Libya by NATO-backed reactionaries

A headline shortly after Libya's destruction by NATO-backed reactionaries

The US government has been reenacting the fable of the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and has been cynically leveraging the very serious accusation of genocide against its geopolitical enemies. This is the source of skepticism on Xinjiang. And this is not a new strategy, yes, the Holodomor, which everyone in the US has been taught to take seriously lately, is a nazi fabrication first spread to the United States in the works of Robert Conquest. Why would the USSR deliberately starve a fellow socialist Republic? Why would Stalin, a Georgian, have some kind of Russian chauvinist grudge against Ukrainians? Why would Lenin (Donbass), Stalin (Lviv), and Khruschev (Crimea) all expand the territory of the Ukrainian SSR while also trying to kill off the people inside of it? Why would the USSR ethnically cleanse Ukrainains while simultaneously sending food aid to the starving British colony in Bengal? Natural famines and crop failures were spun by the nazis into atrocity propaganda. Also, a state does not have to be perfect to be defended against false accuations. I think China is far from perfect, but the burden of proof is on the United States to prove its accusations (which have changed in scope several times) regarding Xinjiang. Delegations from Muslim majority nations visiting Xinjiang do not agree with the United States that there is a genocide of the Uyghur people. There is however an attempt to reeducate extremist groups like ETIM. Reeducating extremists might seem a harsh government policy, but I assure you it is a better way of dealing with religious fundamentalism than drone striking weddings or air striking hospitals like the USA did in Afghanistan.

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[–] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 115 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It’s funny seeing Hexbears not understand how lemmy works. It’s hilarious seeing them angry over dissent.

wonder-who-thats-for

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 91 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (23 children)
[–] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 83 points 2 years ago

If libs paid attention to where their treats were coming from they wouldn't be libs anymore

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[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 59 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It's funny

It's hilarious

I like it that

It's ironic that

It's weird that

so many fucking sentences start like that when smug liberals want to hide their rage behind more smugness.

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 41 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I sometimes worry that I always start my comments in really similar ways and tend to use the same 3 or 4 kind of "templates" when talking. But these guys make me feel more original.

[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 33 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I am sure I use some cliches as well, often without thinking of them.

To me it's the frequency of these smug yet hollow liberal fucks. They all put on the pretenses of smartness and superiority, and what else do they have? NOTHING.

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[–] pooh@hexbear.net 99 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Just going to throw out that the tankies at the... uhhh... US STATE DEPARTMENT have also said officially that there isn't evidence for genocide in Xinjiang: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/

If anyone calls you a genocide denier, throw out this one and see out they respond. smuglord

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 68 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They won't. I can't get the fuckers to read the UN report, either. And good luck getting them to look in to any information on the 1932 famine that doesn't come directly from Himmler of the OUN-B.

[–] jackmarxist@hexbear.net 44 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I remember one guy who posted the UN report as proof of genocide but the report itself didn't say anything related to genocide.

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 31 points 2 years ago

I think sources are actually for trying to get people to exit the conversation, not actually assessing the continuity of evidence and argument.

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 63 points 2 years ago (1 children)

the tankies at the... uhhh... US STATE DEPARTMENT

🤔 well come to think of it they did roll M1 Abrams into Iraq

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 50 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I did find a type of guy who defined tankies as anyone who does wars that harm civilians in any way. Pure vibes.

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 36 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Barabas@hexbear.net 29 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The way that Rome conducted war is ironically a lot like how westerners believe the Soviet Union did. But the Romans are percieved as some kind of elite superforce who beat their enemies in 10-1 fights rather than simply having more soldiers in the vast amount of wars.

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[–] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 50 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I've already seen they say. To any lazy libs out there here are some canned responses

The genocide is real but:

  • the US doesn't want to hinder trade relations with China
  • it's happening all across China so it's less of a targeted thing and more of a general oppression thing
  • China is super duper sneaky about it so we can't gather enough substantive evidence to bring to court
  • there's some technicality that precludes it from being legally official even though it fits the common definition (that's the argument your link is going with)
[–] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 34 points 2 years ago

That first one is the funniest to me and I've seen it a lot. Basically the lib just admits that the US doesn't actually care about human rights because it might impact trade. And somehow that means the US is the good guy. Because it values trade more than a claimed genocide.

Libs do not care about Muslims in China. Not one tiny bit. They only care about finding an enemy they can point their ire at so they don't have to look inward and see their own crimes.

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 31 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Literally just the other day saw a video of like dozens of uighur kids running around the city in kashgar. If an active genocide was happening how on earth would the parents think it's safe for so many of their kids to run around unsupervised outside?

Also one of the kids invited the camera lady to their house and their place was both nicer than the camera lady's and my own place lol, I felt a degree of jealousy

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[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Legit had a liberal, when presented with the fact that the RAND corporation (the organisation that blurs the line between a US government agency and a private organisation which essentially set war policy in the Vietnam war for having kill counts as a metric for determining "success" in Vietnam, amongst other things) had released a paper that basically said that if the US wants to cripple the Chinese economy then what they'd need to do is to initiate a limited military conflict in the South China Sea within the next few years to disrupt the shipping lanes which China is largely dependent upon for foreign trade (before the Belt & Road Initiative gets away from the US and closes this window.)

The outcome, they determined, would be significantly more damaging to the Chinese economy than it would be to the US economy.

I stated that this has been around for some time now and it's not a coincidence that the US is clamouring for war in the SCS and escalating in that region as much as possible without actually firing shots (yet).

What did the lib do?

You guessed it! It was obviously Sissypee tankie propaganda. From the RAND corporation.

I wish I had a fraction of the confidence of these shit-tier libs on the internet have because goddamn, the absolute balls to make the bald-faced claim that a corporation which would have extremely high US security clearance requirements and which has been directly influential over US policy for three quarters of a century is somehow now churning out pro-Chinese propaganda without anyone noticing or making a fuss over it.

It's absolutely ridiculous the degree of information and knowledge that we are expected to bring to bear in a discussion and, upon presenting this info, the libs can summarily dismiss it for going against their narrative as Chinese propaganda (or tankie propaganda etc.) and they do it with zero evidence and zero familiarity with something like the RAND corporation's history and function.

You'd legit get a military officer to burst out in laughter if you claimed that the RAND corporation was an arm of the CPC in front of them. And that's a bad thing because I wish all US military a very unpleasant experience.

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[–] aebletrae@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I don't think this is actually a particularly good suggestion. It's too easy to dodge with "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". It doesn't matter if they lack evidence of presence, because they're not trying to be objective, they're trying to be superior.

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 26 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Sure, but then they're just arguing from a pseudo religous position of "well you can't prove it's not happening", which is a very weak one

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[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 86 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

"General purpose" instances are something else. Someone claimed that during the Tiananmen protests PLA tanks intentionally ran over students. When I pressed for evidence I was banned by the lemmyshitpost mod for denying genocide. Tiananmen "massacre" is a genocide now too. The Chinese are geniciding themselves.

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 65 points 2 years ago (2 children)
[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 57 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Jesus Christ. Americans are barbarians.

[–] Ho_Chi_Chungus@hexbear.net 44 points 2 years ago

As an American, comparing us to barbarians is unfair to barbarians. They aren't as uncivilized as us

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 38 points 2 years ago

I would not so insult barbarians by comparing them to us.

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[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago

Death to America

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 36 points 2 years ago

Lol. Lmao. lmfaoroflscreamingintothevoid.

No one has ever quite been able to explain why the Ukrainian communist officials in the Ukrainian SSR were intent on genociding Ukrainians, either. not even a "Well they were brainwashed by communism!" Just... pure vibes.

[–] emizeko@hexbear.net 69 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I feel like this connects back to the liberal need to erase anyone left of them, because otherwise they can't pretend to be the good guys

also this:

The kitten-burners seem to fulfill some urgent need. They give us someone we can clearly and correctly say we’re better than. Their extravagant cruelty makes us feel better about ourselves because we know that we would never do what they have done. They thus function as signposts of depravity, reassuring the rest of us that we’re Not As Bad As them, and thus letting us tell ourselves that this is the same thing as us being good.

from https://redsails.org/false-witnesses/

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[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 67 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, I deny the white genocide.

[–] mayo_cider@hexbear.net 52 points 2 years ago (2 children)

After everything I've done :(

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[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 60 points 2 years ago (1 children)

https://sh.itjust.works/post/4274675

Of course their community image is a fucking racist caricature lol

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 59 points 2 years ago (2 children)

noooooooo you don't understand, it's not racist, it's just making fun of xi jinping because he got really mad and banned winnie the pooh. "source?" what do you mean "source?" racist-lorry-driver

[–] kristina@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I can trawl Shanghai Disney world for like millions of Winnie the Pooh pics they literally are just parrots

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 58 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Even Stephen Kotkin (the lib), who is a highly esteemed academic historian (professor at Princeton), said what happened in Ukraine in the 30s wasn't genocide in his Stalin biography. The only revisionism that's happening here is libs pretending that there is a consensus about calling it a genocide among academic historians.

All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians.

Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 by Stephen Kotkin published in October 2017 by Penguin Random House

Here's Mark Tauger's takedown of Applebaum's Holodomor book:

Some might ask whether Applebaum’s writing is more accessible to “non-specialist” readers. There are many excellent writers among Slavic specialists, and a more accurate account could easily have been presented in clear and simple language. Applebaum’s writing does not “simplify” the truth, it obscures it, as discussed in this review. Red Famine thus does not fit well in the existing scholarly literature, even as “popular history.” Its interpretation resembles that of Conquest’s Harvest of Sorrow, and it does use recent published sources that provide vivid descriptions of many people’s experiences in the famine. But it leaves out too much important information, has false claims on key points, and draws unjustified conclusions on important issues based on incomplete use of sources, making it not even close to the level of genuine scholarship, like Davies and Wheatcroft’s Years of Hunger. Red Famine is better characterized by a passage from Peter Kenez’s book on The Birth of the Propaganda State: “propaganda often means telling less than the truth, misleading people … manipulating and distorting information, lying” and addresses “audiences in simple language…”

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[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 57 points 2 years ago (7 children)

It's fucking sickening that tankies will deny the well-documented fact that Stalin ate all the grain in Ukraine with his giant spoon

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 27 points 2 years ago

word has it he paid the clouds not to rain

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[–] sicklemode@hexbear.net 54 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

The chud bible:

  • Horseshoe theory
  • Double genocide theory
  • The black book of communism
  • Whataboutism
  • clueless
  • smuglord
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[–] KarlBarqs@hexbear.net 50 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Why would the USSR deliberately starve a fellow socialist Republic? Why would Stalin, a Georgian, have some kind of Russian chauvinist grudge against Ukrainians? Why would Lenin (Donbass), Stalin (Lviv), and Khruschev (Crimea) all expand the territory of the Ukrainian SSR while also trying to kill off the people inside of it?

My key question: Why would Stalin stop? If the Holodomor was a deliberate attempt to genocide the Ukrainian people, it would be to my knowledge the only genocide in the history of the world where the perpetrator just randomly decided to stop the genocidal actions and never again make any attempt to restart it for the next 30 years of his life.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 32 points 2 years ago

There are opportunistic genocides around famines (not in this case, of course) where the attempt is taken because it is easy and not pursued further when it is difficult. Britain did this multiple times around the world.

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[–] HarryLime@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Which genocide do they say we deny?

[–] FlakesBongler@hexbear.net 48 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Xinjiang and Ukraine (both past and present) mainly

Because as we all know, Genocide is when other countries do things that the West doesn't like

Whereas if Ukrainians are systemically oppressing and killing the Russian-speaking minority in the East, that's just protecting themselves and their national identity, which is good so-true

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[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Holodomor, and Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

[–] build_a_bear_group@hexbear.net 42 points 2 years ago

All right-wing politics is projection.

[–] Catradora_Stalinism@hexbear.net 41 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Honestly the SJW fucks can go die crushed by the bridge their NATO overlords sold them

[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 47 points 2 years ago (1 children)

i'm just gonna call them shitjustworks so people don't dig through my post history later on and mistake me as complaining about "social justice warriors" lol

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[–] Cherufe@hexbear.net 40 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Acording to peepee we poopoo

Like half of the posts in this site in recent times

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[–] Frank@hexbear.net 37 points 2 years ago

Well we do, but only for Genocides that everyone, including the United Nations and prominent sane anti-communist historians say didn't happen, or didn't happen the way the Nazis say they did.

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