this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2023
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solarpunk memes

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[–] RushingSquirrel@lemm.ee 56 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Another fix: remote work for all who can. No more traffic, no more living close to economic centers (expensive housing), leaves a lot of available housing in the cities (no more homelessness).

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 26 points 2 years ago (3 children)

My biggest worry is that people already have no sense of community. Third places (is it still a third place if we remove going in to work?) can't really exist in suburbia. People sit inside when off work, drive to work isolated from everyone, then sit at work mostly not building a community. Americans have no sense of community, which I would blame for most of our current political issues. People spreading out and not going in to work (I'm not in favor of this, just not looking forward to this one effect of it) can only further degrade any sense of community that currently exists.

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[–] synae@lemmy.sdf.org 37 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Could easily fix "LISA" in the last panel to "USA", and remove California from the first panel, and boom, you got a meme for the whole country

[–] metaStatic@kbin.social 23 points 2 years ago

Yeah, right synae, A single, relevant meme.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 31 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yeah it won't really solve it in a single city though. NYC has tons and tons of dense urban housing but still insane housing prices.

[–] w2tpmf@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

...and insane traffic.

...and homelessness.

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[–] Umbrias@beehaw.org 30 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Anybody claiming one general solution will fix every single grievance they have sounds a step away from buying essential oils.

Don't get me wrong, it will help, but no every pet problem will not be magically solved by waving hands and going "just do better urban panning, duh"

Just don't romanticize your proposed solution to a degree where you think you can slap it in and problems solve themselves.

[–] spiderplant@lemm.ee 5 points 2 years ago (13 children)

I mean the overarching problem being talked about here is not having well planned cities (ie 15 min cities) that provide housing for everyone.

The solution mentioned would absolutely solve or go a long way to solve all the problems mentioned in the meme.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 years ago

That's fair, but the meme doesn't work that way.

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[–] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 27 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I'm not american and have never even been there but doesn't New York city have the same problems? And AFAIK NYC is very vertical.

[–] Marcbmann@lemmy.world 27 points 2 years ago (4 children)

NYC doesn't have as bad of a homeless issue as LA.

But NYC is also an extremely expensive place to live, and built vertically due to a lack of space for outward expansion.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 20 points 2 years ago

Might also be good to point out that NYC has a lot more commercial office and high-end condo development than high-density housing.

But that also has a lot to do with how expensive land is, which is mostly due to it being land-locked as mentioned.

[–] Adramis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

This is anecdotal from browsing vagabond sources, but there's a lot of reasons NYC might have fewer homeless.

A) The pigs and rules on the east coast are a lot more brutal towards the homeless than the west coast. This both leads to migration away from the east coast and for the homeless that are there to be much more invisible.

B) The west coast has a history of being relatively welcoming to the houseless / a lot of lore built up around it, so people tend to gravitate towards it.

C) The west coast has a much more survivable climate than the east coast - this is the reason I hear the most.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

As a local, I'll add what I think are more meaningful differences.

First, most homeless people in CA are locals who were forced out, not interstate homeless migrants looking for a good place to be homeless.

The main reason is that CA doesn't have nearly as many temporary shelters for people to go to. And as you noted, it's more survivable to live outdoors.

Overall, NYC still has a pretty big population of folks in shelters, but CA has way more folks living in cars, trailers, and tents.

Yeah there was a whole purge policy Giuliani set up.

Funny how those rules never went away under Dem control.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

NYC doesn't have as bad of a homeless issue as LA.

Because you'll literally die the very first winter night you're homeless without shelter in NYC. They have a bunch of shelters, so the problem is less visible, and when they run out of space they bus them to L.A.. Those that remain are found frozen to death in the morning.

[–] Marcbmann@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

NYC also has a roughly equivalent homeless population to LA, but LA has less than half the population than NYC.

Being a NYC native, I can agree that if the situation definitely is not visible. But considering the population differences, I'd say it's not as bad in NYC.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 8 points 2 years ago

In addition to the other replies, it can also matter where in NYC you're talking about

https://metropolismoving.com/blog/housing-costs-nyc/

Bronx has a median rent to income ratio of 45%, while Manhattan is 30%. This is primarily due to the fact that median income for Manhattan renters is double what it is in the Bronx, but rent doesn't scale up the same. Against my own expectation, this makes Manhattan a reasonable-ish place to live, at least if we're just talking about rent and income.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 22 points 2 years ago (6 children)

The only thing I don't see is how it would fix people being homeless. Many homeless are unable to be properly housed because they have mental illnesses, trauma, etc. If you put them in an apartment without extensive further help, many will get back on the street and/or destroy the apartment. You can't solve their problems with just providing housing.

[–] SinAdjetivos@beehaw.org 20 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (11 children)
  1. Shelter is critical to survival. The general rule of thumb places it as a higher priority than food or water. Arguing against people having access to reliable shelter, regardless the rational, is arguing for deliberately killing them.

  2. The "they're defective and will destroy whatever they live. Don't let them in!!!" is just calling them cockroaches in a different way. It's fear mongering nonsense and there is no evidence to support that claim.

  3. You're assuming correlation does not equal causation. It turns out being homeless, even for a relatively short period of time, is devastating to mental health and even if not the root cause (IE genetic predeposition, TBIs, etc.) it can strongly exasperate them and create some nasty co-morbidities.

Being repeatedly assulted and or raided by police, neighborhood vigilantes and other desperate people is an extremely quick path towards PTSD/other general anxiety disorders. The aggressive de-humunization that occurs can be a potent factor in antisocial disorders. Direct health impacts like physical battery, hypo/hyperthermia, illness, etc. can cause more detect brain damage such as TBIs, etc. Schizophrenia is usually fairly treatable, schizophrenia with PTSD amplified paranoia much less so.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 16 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Are you familiar with the "Housing first" model? It posits that even for people who need medical or living assistance, having shelter, a bed, a bathroom, a refrigerator, and a permanent address will allow them and whoever is providing support to deal with compounding factors and receive regular visits, Conversely, attempts to treat something like dementia or substance abuse on the street are next to impossible.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Yes I know. And all housing projects I know about pre-select the people they give a home to, often only take in those who are already in the welfare system and all these projects offer extensive additional help.

I feel like some people deliberately interpret stuff into my post just so that they can get angry (not you but, I got some really angry messages).

So to make it extra clear: Giving people a home is great! There definitely should be a home for everyone, it's a human right!

But just giving people a home will not solve the problem with homeless! Putting people with severe mental illnesses, debt, etc. simply into a home does not work.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 years ago

If someone's a jerk, don't forget that there's a "report" button for a reason.

[–] Elivey@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

A big issue with different social workers and such trying to reach and help homeless people is trying to find them. If they have a fixed address, you know where they will likely be. This makes services to take them to doctor appointments, get them welfare cheques, disability service notifications etc. all become reliable.

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[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago (2 children)

There's multiple groups of homeless people.

There's the long term homeless, who often suffer from issues like mental illness, and short term homeless, who usually don't.

High housing prices absolutely causes people to become homeless when they lose their job, become addicted to drugs, etc.

Being homeless is itself traumatic, and exacerbates most issues homeless people have. Affordable housing and giving homeless people an apartment aren't a panacea, but it does prevent a ton of issues for newly homeless people.

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[–] Chunk@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (13 children)

I don't understand how the high density housing solves traffic. In lieu of an additional solution (public transit) I think it would make traffic worse.

Edit

The argument seems to be: high density housing would naturally result in public transit infrastructure. I don't think that line of reasoning makes sense, it's certainly not an obvious inevitability that public transit will always, naturally appear.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 19 points 2 years ago

With density and admitily mixed development, it is pretty simple to live within walking distance of everything around you. A car just needs much more space then a pedestrian and you do not park your body at the site of the street. Other then that the key to good public transport is high frequency. So for a transit connection the more people want to travel the route, the more high frequency makes sense.

[–] daw_germany@feddit.de 18 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The only reason not to build public transport is not having the density to support it....

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[–] jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 2 years ago

You can't have efficient public transport with low density housing. Also high density housing makes it easier to have things like supermarkets within walking distance of everyone.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 12 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It doesn't solve it, but I can see how it would help to solve it. If everyone lives in super low density suburban neighborhoods, public transportation doesn't make any sense. You can't build a train station that would realistically serve a dozen people tops.

Higher density makes public transportation a viable option, which in turn reduces traffic and pollution.

Also high density mixed used means you don't need the car every time you need to go grocery shopping, or to a bar or even to a park. You can go by foot

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[–] GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

High density basically makes the case for transit itself.

[–] s_s@lemm.ee 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

If you can walk/bike to your job without the threat of being run over, you are one less car on the road.

Thihk of it in levels:

  1. People will skip work-commuting by car (including students) when there are other viable options that are not made life-threatening by other people in cars. Fewer trips= less traffic

  2. People will avoid driving for errands when there is decent local public transit that lets them shop where they want. Even fewer trips = even less traffic

  3. People will stop owning cars when there is decent local public transit and decent regional networks. Fewer cars = less traffic

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[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 12 points 2 years ago (4 children)

That could alleviate those problems, but I doubt it'd actually solve them. Not to mention, they could also get worse:

  • Cost of living -> Could actually be driven up. Stuff always tends to be more expensive in dense metropolitan areas. Big corpos and rich assholes would buy up as much real state as possible.
  • Traffic -> Without public transportation, this can actually get worse. The distances might be smaller, but the amount of people wanting to get there increases.
  • Homelessness -> directly related to cost of living. Having lots of places to live in that you simply cannot afford will force you to live elsewhere
[–] Pipoca@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Cost of living is tied to supply and demand, more than anything else. When supply is constrained, prices tend to rise.

People often want to have short commutes and to live in walkable areas.

However, most cities in the US and Canada have huge swaths of their metro area zoned exclusively for low density single family housing. Upzoning neighborhoods on the edges of cities is politically difficult.

Cities like NY become expensive because people want to move there, but it's really difficult to add a lot of net-new walkable, transit accessible housing due to zoning, permitting, etc.

If we build a lot of net-new housing, prices will fall.

As for traffic, one of the benefits of mixed use development is being able to walk 5 min to buy groceries, eat at a restaurant or go to a pub. Being able to do many daily chores on foot or bike decreases the number of times you need to either drive or take transit.

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[–] AlwaysNowNeverNotMe@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago

Pfft and not fill our valuable real estate with lawns and parking lots?

[–] netwren@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Look. Clearly I need some education in this area. Why didn't the "projects" in the 80's and 90's effectively provide these benefits?

[–] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago (13 children)

Because they were inadequately funded, regulated to low income areas with no jobs and shit schools. They we're just a glorified hole to stick brown ppl

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[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago

I saw a video that they intentionally made the projects bad to try to "incentivize" people to get out of them. The whole stupid pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

It also centralizes the problem, which intensifies it. What you need is communities of mixed income, which has effects on schools, hospitals, stores nearby, etc.

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago

This is less about the government building things and more about the government changing zoning so denser communities are built.

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