this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2025
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[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

We're not forcing people to come here you know. Also the nordics are generally winning the "happiest country" award, so I don't get why you think people here aren't happy.

The decline in births is a global phenomenon. It's down everywhere except Africa, parts of Asia and parts of South America. I think 1-2 countries in S.America and a few more in Asia.

Wouldn't surprise me if countries will beg migrants to come in a decade or two.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I know the arguments. They sound reasonable. But if people get a year of vacation for making a baby, and they don't make a baby every other year then something is really bad about rising children.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You think having a newborn is a "vacation"? Oh dear.

Having a baby is risky for a woman, physically, financially, emotionally. Perhaps the outlook of the world isn't great either. Combine that with women realising that they have choices, that they don't have to have children, and you get the decline.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

physically, financially, emotionally

So the latter two can still be improved.

outlook of the world isn’t great either.

My argument

Immigration allows the elite to avoid the consequences of their bad politics. If living conditions were good enough people would have children.

I don’t mind better politics or living conditions, but look at the nordics. Best places in the world to have a kid and we still can’t manage to have 2 kids per couple.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So the latter two can still be improved.

All three are vastly superior in most of the west compared to most of Africa, yet women in most, if not all, African countries have more kids than western women. Do you honestly think that's because they're happier? Women in Afghanistan have more babies than women in the nordics. Do you think it's better to be a women in Afghanistan?

My argument

Your argument makes no sense. Living standards are abhorrent in Afghanistan and fantastic in the nordics, generally speaking. It's not about the living standards.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Do you think it’s better to be a women in Afghanistan?

No. But if you give women the choice you have to create the conditions that having a baby is the best option.

It’s not about the living standards.

It is, if you give women the choice.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No. But if you give women the choice you have to create the conditions that having a baby is the best option.

Assuming the freedom to choose, I don't think those conditions exist. I think that people that want children will have them, and people that don't won't. I think the new normal is a lower nativity.

It is, if you give women the choice.

In countries where women get to choose, nativity goes down. In Bangladesh the nativity dropped with improved living standards. There's a great video about it.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 2 days ago

I think that people that want children will have them, and people that don’t won’t.

Why should there be a fixed border? Improve material and emotional conditions for families and that border will shift.

In countries where women get to choose, nativity goes down.

Conditions in Sweden are best and still not good enough. Of course they go down in other countries.