this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
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chapotraphouse

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[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 74 points 11 months ago (8 children)

Hate to say it but, wtf does this mean anyway? Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?

My honest and most realistic appraisal is that our support means nothing, we have nothing to offer, and any engagement in discourse about the moral or political value of the projects of the Russian state or the Chinese state is basically fruitless when the discussion among those in the halls of power is so far removed from our discussion that the difference between the most fervently critical Anarchist comrade and the most ridiculously pro-SMO ML is completely irrelevant. It's not exactly arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but functionally it's just as useless of a discussion. If we all agree that we have to show up at protests resisting the MIC, calling for peace, supporting leftist local politicians, and doing everything we can to raise union membership, what difference does it make that I 'stan China' but you 'critically support Putin despite Duginist elements in the Russian government'? Is it not just as fruitless as political compass memes? Because from where I'm looking it literally is just PCM for people that have read the manifesto. The only value of the argument is to intellectually deduce the truth, a project that's completely separate to actually achieving political power.

And yes, where you land in the spectrum of supporting Russia and China can influence which political party in your area to support, but practically the only material difference a minority party will make is whether it's going to support sanctions and tariffs against Russia and China, or it won't. However, not to No True Scotsman, but no true leftist party is going to jump on such a blatantly neoliberal and imperialist position as to economically punish 2 of the largest populations on Earth while knowing how little effect those sanctions will have on the ruling classes of the target states. So we're back to square 1, regardless of your position, the actions you can take regarding Russia and China are the same.

Just to finish off the rant, here's a comment from 72T that I found really insightful. TL;DR the question isn't, "should we support a multipolar world," because we have no power to change that reality, whether it's going to arrive or not is entirely out of our hands. The question is "what is to be done about the incoming multipolar world," especially locally, with regards to how it affects our approach to building power.

No shade on JT though, as far as the question exists in a vacuum that's a good answer.

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 38 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No, it's important to, as Mao said, properly delineate who's our friends and who's our enemies. Otherwise, your org will do cringey shit like the DSA delegation snubbing the Cuban president and talking to a bunch of traitors working for the CIA instead.

Unless you want your org to be completely isolated from the international community and abandon internationalism, it has to connect and break bread with other orgs throughout the world and perhaps even anti-imperialist governments. While the DSA shit the bed with regards to Cuba, I think the DSA also send a delegation to Venezuela where they met Maduro. Obviously, Maduro isn't going to meet with a bunch of dipshits who shittalk him by calling him an authoritarian dictator, but by personally meeting with Maduro, they have tacitly (and rightfully) support Maduro and uphold the Bolivarian Revolution.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago

Synthesis: The answer to this question,

Does the left have anything to offer to Russia, China, etc? What does it mean for us to support them, or to withdraw our support?

is that it is inconsequential what an individual leftist believes, but it matters a great deal for national leftist organizations to connect and build solidarity with international leftist organizations. What the American left (for example) has to offer China is quite simply a counterpart in America which can participate in the broader socialist movement, which is mutually beneficial. If/when shit does hit the fan, the left has to be ready both theoretically and organizationally.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I really agree with this but I’ll add a little more. A lot of the theory written by people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao occurred in the context of historical upheaval during which theory was absolutely necessary to chart a path forward for an actually existing political movement. So those writings should be understood first as practical and only second as abstractly philosophical.

Theoretical development is still worth doing in order to prepare, but there is way too much emphasis on abstract correctness over real successes.

[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 23 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Theory is science. It has to keep up with the evolving nature of capitalism.

While fascism was invented to defeat communism in response to the Bolshevik Revolution, the fact is that left wing theory until this day still has no definite answer to fascism - the most vicious form of capitalism.

Lenin saw the rise of fascism late in his life but did not live long enough to observe the true destructive force of fascism. Stalin spent the rest of his life rebuilding a country where tens of millions were sacrificed in the fight against fascism. Same with Mao having to deal with the Japanese and the KMT fascists, where millions and millions were killed in the process.

The post-war European left turned their backs on the Soviet Union and chose class collaborationism with capital in the form of social democracy, which directly caused the rise of far right nationalism in the present day, to which they have no answer for.

The post-war US perfected the brutality of fascism in the form of Jakarta Method, which was then enacted across the Third World where tens of millions were murdered and tortured in the name of anti-communism. The destructive nature of fascism lingers to this very day in many places across the Global South.

More than one hundred years since fascists first took power in Italy, the left still has no answer for it. How to defeat it without getting millions of people killed in the process. That should tell you the state of left wing theoretical development we are in today, and how much work needs to be done while time is about to run out.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Completely agree about the need for theory to evolve with material changes.

Science needs to advance, but does it follow that every individual leftist needs to be preoccupied with theory, with becoming a scientist? For every Lenin there were millions of average people trusting in the party line that he and the Bolsheviks produced. Most Russian revolutionaries, of whom only a fraction were serious party members, likely did not have a strong grasp of theory outside of their own experience.

Western leftists (myself included) have to combat their latent liberalism, one form of which is a belief in the "marketplace of ideas." This belief is the basis of electoralism, which as most lefitsts understand theoretically, is ineffectual in practice. Yet with so much emphasis on perfecting science, one has to wonder if the Western left has actually internalized the truth that the best idea does not inevitably win, that progress doesn't follow inevitably from worsening material conditions.

We could have a perfect theoretical understanding of capitalism and it would not matter until the left has politically organized in such a way as to put that theory into practice. There are enough theorizers/philosophers/"scientists" on the left and not enough direct action and organizing.

Reading the abstract theory of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao — it is too easy to forget the context in which those writings happen. Many believe that Marx invented communism, but his actual result was consolidating an otherwise disorganized proletarian movement under a single theoretical basis.

The manifesto itself was written intentionally watered down on some points so as to receive buy-in from various socialist factions. The intellectual disagreements between the factions worked themselves out because the correctness of this or that idea was demonstrated in practice. Engels wrote in his 1888 preface to the manifesto,

Marx, who drew up this programme to the satisfaction of all parties, entirely trusted to the intellectual development of the working class, which was sure to result from combined action and mutual discussion. The very events and vicissitudes in the struggle against capital, the defeats even more than the victories, could not help bringing home to men’ s minds the insufficiency of their various favorite nostrums, and preparing the way for a more complete insight into the true conditions for working-class emancipation. And Marx was right. The International, on its breaking in 1874, left the workers quite different men from what it found them in 1864. Proudhonism in France, Lassalleanism in Germany, were dying out, and even the conservative English trade unions, though most of them had long since severed their connection with the International, were gradually advancing towards that point at which, last year at Swansea, their president [W. Bevan] could say in their name: “Continental socialism has lost its terror for us.” In fact, the principles of the Manifesto had made considerable headway among the working men of all countries.

Leftist theory does need to advance, but not through contemplation alone. It needs to be tested in practice. And I think that is what JT is saying here, that theoretical correctness is secondary to direct action.

[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

What you need is called praxis - practice guided by theory.

The scientific nature of Marxism necessarily implies that its theory will be carried out and tested in the real world. However, without a theoretical foundation, practice is as good as shooting in the dark. It’s like wanting to build a plane but never bothering to pick up a physics textbook to study the foundational principles in the first place. Yes, you can try to re-invent the wheel that took several centuries of collective effort, but it’s going to take a very long time before you even get close to a starting point.

It is no coincidence that all socialist governments that have succeeded in their revolutions and survived the ensuing counter-revolutions are all Marxist-Leninist.

[–] Yeat@hexbear.net 17 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] TBooneChickens@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

great comment theory of history

[–] SpiderFarmer@hexbear.net 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Make a c/greatposting and chuck this in it.

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[–] sinstrium@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago (3 children)

If you stand back and be silent when "enemy" countries get slandered, you are legitimizing imperalism and help cultural imperalism do its work. This applies on a micro & marco-level.

[–] Tunnelvision@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

I think it was Xi who personally said the digital space was an important ideological battleground of the 21st century. Posting is praxis people.

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[–] sawne128@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

You failed to consider thoughts and prayers.

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[–] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 55 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I def get schadenfreude from Russia being a pain in the ass for the US empire. It's fun to watch state department ghouls run around with their hair on fire trying to figure out Russia's next moves, which is often just rational capitalist moves given their circumstances. My fever dream is the PRC continuing to undermine US hegemony and court/guide Russia back into an era of a new USSR, finally driving the rest of the global south into revolution and choking off the great Satan.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 10 points 11 months ago

Sadly China has not been interested in actively building international socialism in a long time. Maybe that will change one day, but not yet.

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 44 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Support them when they do good things, criticize when they do bad things. It goes for any country. Feels like its 2022 again and people are relearning what "critical support" means.

[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 48 points 11 months ago (3 children)

It’s the standard Western leftist take that we have seen regurgitated so many times over the years.

It is no different that asking: why is Iran so conservative? why is Afghanistan so conservative? why are so many countries in the Global South so conservative? Why don’t they elect a left wing government that we can support?

Hint: read up the history of left wing movements from those countries, what happened to them and especially the role of US/Western imperialists behind it.

Again, it is sad we continue to see this kind of ahistorical and non-materialist takes from the Western left. It provides no explanatory power to the material conditions of our current world, nor does it have any prescriptive power to guide left wing movements toward defeating capitalism.

It ends up with a “good guy” vs “bad guy” delineation with a bit more nuance but really not so much different from your standard liberal take.

Argentina is one of the best real world examples on why voting for left always end up on the right. Again, with this kind of discourse you cannot explain how someone like Milei could get elected and so you end up blaming the Argentinian people for being stupid for electing a right wing libertarian to destroy their own country.

There is very little room for left wing movements in the Global South to survive until Western imperialism has been completely and thoroughly defeated.

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago

Yeah when we look at the narrative around Putin. Its unironic great man theory as if he is behind all the reactionary and conservative aspects. The worst part being the liberal fetish for color revolutions. The idea there is some liberal hero being oppressed and would be ready to replace him if only we support them. They tried that shit with Navalny even though nobody anywhere even knows him and not realizing he was just as racist and a nazi shit as everyone else.

Putin would be coup by the kind of people that think the war is embarrassing and would be ready to do a full mobilization(an additional 1 million or so) and actualy start bombing and destroying Ukraine indiscriminately.

This whole idea of a slow paced war of a attrition is not without its shaky moments(the Moskva,Kherson retreat, the Moscow attack etc). Nobody pretends the war is without cost, but Russia is managing this cost because they're being very conscious and smart about e.g building the military industry, making sure to transfer more wealth to workers even if just government subsidies etc.

Of course none of this is to say Putin deserves any praise but he was willing to admit to his previous mistake of being naive and willing to bring Russia closer to the west. His replacement in a coup would be someone even more resentful not less, someone even more agressive towards Ukraine not less.

The mythical "western values" loving Russian? That was quite literaly Putin 25 years ago lol.

[–] GrouchyGrouse@hexbear.net 9 points 11 months ago

There is very little room for left wing movements in the Global South to survive until Western imperialism has been completely and thoroughly defeated

I posted about this a while back. I think (and hope) that the path forward is along these lines but it will of course happen over a long time period. Practically this will take the shape of slackening control of western imperialism enabling political alternatives to be tried. There will be failures, false starts, and even fully wrong solutions (Milei is a good example of the latter) but precisely because people will be able to try things without the CIA or capital bringing down the boot we have a chance to see some critical successes.

[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago

But you don't support Ukraine, so that means you want all Ukrainians fed into a woodchipper and Putin to rule all of Eurasia forever

Liberals really mock conservatives for having no nuance, then turn around and proceed to show they have none either

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 31 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

The leaders of the counter-hegemonic pole are Russia, China, and Iran, and no amount of coping or malding about the real and imagined inadequacies of these three will change this simple fact.

[–] AnarchoAnarchist@hexbear.net 14 points 11 months ago

There is a reason we say "critical support"

If I were a Iranian I would have major issues with my national government. If I were Russian I would have major issues with my elected leaders. If I were Cuban, Vietnamese, or Chinese, I'm sure I would find something to complain about.

From my current position, in the imperial core, I refuse to speak ill of the countries working to dismantle American hegemony.

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[–] Frogmanfromlake@hexbear.net 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Russia also has a lot of influence in the global south that China lacks. You can give me all the history lessons you want as to why that is but at the end of the day it’s the Russian flag you see rebels waving and not the Chinese one.

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 23 points 11 months ago

Russia has a much better track record in Africa than China going way back to Tsar Nicholas II. It says a lot that even when Russia was at its most imperialist and reactionary, it still played a progressive role in Africa. Because if it wasn't for Tsarist Russia under Tsar Nicholas II, Ethiopia wouldn't have done so well in the First Italo-Ethiopian War, perhaps even be colonized by the Italians. At the height of European colonization of Africa, Ethiopia was the only African country that held onto its sovereignty (Liberia doesn't count since Liberia was a de facto US colony), and much of it was thanks to Tsarist Russia.

Russia's hands are almost completely clean when it comes to Africa. More Africans died from being tossed overboard in a single slave ship headed to the Americas than however many Africans Wagner or any other Russian-affiliated group has killed. As long as the current Russia leader isn't as bad as some inbred anti-Semitic chump who got owned by communists, Russia will most likely continue to play a progressive role in Africa.

[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Another factor that people often neglect is that Russia has been canceling debt across the Global South owed to both the Soviet Union and post-Soviet Russia. From 1991 to 2018, Russia has canceled over $140 billion debt in the Global South countries. Just last year, Russia canceled another $23 billion debt in Africa.

Russia is a very weak economy but even Putin understands that these African countries cannot possibly repay their debt. Russia could have used the debt to push for privatization in Africa and take over their assets to further exploitation as a colonial power, like what Western imperialists are doing through IMF.

Russia doesn’t do that. It is fundamentally not the same as a Western imperialist power no matter how much people try to equate Russia to the US empire.

Look at how the French furthered its colonialist ambitions in Africa through CFA franc and treat those countries and you’d instantly understand why people from Burkina Faso like Russia so much.

On the other hand, and unfortunately, China still has some issues with their image across the Global South (and I say this as a Chinese myself). Many countries are still quite suspicious of China’s intentions and there is an impression that China is only interested in doing business where profit matters.

The Chinese geopolitical strategy since Mao’s time has been to maximize benefit to its internal development even at the expense of other countries of the developing world, which is fundamentally different from the Soviet Union where foreign aid was dished out to arm anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggles. As a result, even Russia as a capitalist country today continues to benefit from the good will the Soviet Union had sown over the years.

This is why I always say that if China is serious about leading the anti-imperialist movement against the global hegemon, it can start by using its vast amount of foreign reserves to pay back the Global South debt. This will improve China’s image in the eyes of many Global South countries.

[–] bazingabrain@hexbear.net 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

This is why I always say that if China is serious about leading the anti-imperialist movement against the global hegemon, it can start by using its vast amount of foreign reserves to pay back the Global South debt. This will improve China’s image in the eyes of many Global South countries.

isnt china already doing this?

On the other hand, and unfortunately, China still has some issues with their image across the Global South (and I say this as a Chinese myself). Many countries are still quite suspicious of China’s intentions and there is an impression that China is only interested in doing business where profit matters.

is there some truth to his or is it another fabrication from western media?

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[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 26 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I love that there is such a stark contrast between the Western left and the Global South left when it comes to Russia.

It is telling how well the propaganda works when people are equating Russia with the US.

[–] dead@hexbear.net 35 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

From the Tucker Carlson interview. Putin compares Russia with the US. Putin says "We are bourgeois now as you are. We are a market economy and there is no communist party with power."



[–] Droplet@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 22 points 11 months ago

He probably has a pretty good idea about where Russia stands on leftism, though.

[–] ikilledtheradiostar@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Was that not him speaking about Russia in the 90s?

[–] Tunnelvision@hexbear.net 10 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Maybe maybe not, but it’s as true today as it was in the 90’s so that distinction doesn’t really matter.

[–] ikilledtheradiostar@hexbear.net 8 points 11 months ago (4 children)

I thought Putin was popular because of his resistance to the shock doctrine. Russia doesn't seem imperial and has a ton of productive capacity. With that many prols and the their history with the USSR certainly they're not actually as bourgeois as the us now. Do you have any information? Most I've read is Kathleen Tyson and she describes it as some sort of proto China.

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[–] dead@hexbear.net 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Tucker asks the question. "Why does the US fear a strong Russia by not a strong China?" Putin says that in 1991 Russia expected to be welcomed into "the brotherhood of civilized nations". Then Putin talks about NATO expansion. Putin says that the US lied because they had promised not to expand eastward after 1991. Then he said that there were 5 waves of NATO expansion after 1991. Putin says that at each wave of expansion, Russia tried to persuade NATO to stop expanding by saying that Russia is a "bourgeois" country with a "free market" and "no communist party with power".

The first NATO expansion after 1991 was in March 1999, then again in 2004, 2009, 2017, 2020, 2023, and 2024. It is my understanding that Putin was referring to the period from 1999 to present day.

[–] Barx@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago

When the empire is targeting a designated enemy that undermines the empire, it will deploy constant propaganda against that target.

Those who want to see the end of the empire will then need to take time to explain why the target is not uniquely bad, the criticisms are largely false, etc etc. Otherwise you're just helping manufacture consent for the targeting of that country.

This is the kind of "support" socialists should provide. Push back on Russophobia, collective punishment, the US war machine, support for NATO, and false histories of what's happened in Ukraine and Syria.

[–] Evilphd666@hexbear.net 22 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Folow up question: Would Russia be such a deranged right-wing oligarchy if it wasn't for the constant US/EU meddling and shitfuckery?

[–] Findom_DeLuise@hexbear.net 18 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Depends, would they still have tried to out-pizza the Hut? gorby-sad

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[–] Moss@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

If not for the constant US/EU meddling and shitfuckery, there wouldn't be a Russian Federation nor a war in Ukraine, because there would be a USSR

[–] Greenleaf@hexbear.net 19 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This is kinda what I was explaining to a lib friend the other day: I was a lot more ambivalent about the SMO before NATO got involved. I didn’t really have a pro/anti position, I just pointed out that this was the natural consequence of the events from 2014 onward.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 16 points 11 months ago

ever so slightly less dogshit than his dogshit party

[–] sinstrium@hexbear.net 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Russia is literally the only reason why countries like Cuba or DPRK are still standing- I do not think China would ever put up the slag in that regard. So the preserverance of russian independence is one of the major ways the global south can be helped.

[–] Tunnelvision@hexbear.net 28 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Russia is literally the only reason why countries like Cuba or DPRK are still standing

This is an overstatement. These places are standing because they literally fought and WON against the US. Give them the credit they deserve.

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[–] Guamer@hexbear.net 12 points 11 months ago

Disappointed it's not Justin Timberlake

[–] radiofreeval@hexbear.net 7 points 11 months ago
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