this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
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Leftism

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[–] theluddite@lemmy.ml 47 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (6 children)

I think there's a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here's a few thought experiments:

Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could've paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.

Or, your landlord doesn't renew your lease because they think you're ugly and they don't want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.

Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don't see the violence because we've been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

^ This is the winner, right here. The crux, as it were.

Modern society always ultimately boils down, eventually, to might makes right... just with some extra steps.

[–] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (10 children)

I agree with you. That said, as humans, we're not yet evolved past defending territory we've chosen to live on. I think we still need "might" as an option for response, until we as a creator evolve further.

I don't know if it's possible to get rid of the final might destination on the continuum of responses to issues, but I think we can agree that the "extra steps" part between "an annoyance" and "possible danger to individuals and society" is extremely lacking and narrow.

I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.

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[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (39 children)

Very true, although I can't think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that's not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.

[–] theluddite@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.

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[–] Clent@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

This applies in general to copyright.

It's bullshit that exists solely by the power of the state. It only exists as long as we all agree it exists, ever person on the planet. It has only existed for a few centuries but no one can imagine a world without.

Capitalism is the same except worse since no one can agree on what capitalism means. The solution is always to capitalism harder.

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[–] Gloomy@mander.xyz 40 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (11 children)

This is mostly on point, but it also reproduces the 100 companies 71% line.

100 corporations are responsible for 71% of emissions related to fossil fuel and cement production, not 71% of total global emissions.  

Of the total emissions attributed to fossil fuel producers, companies are responsible for around 12% of the direct emissions; the other 88% comes from the emissions released from consumption of products.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jul/22/instagram-posts/no-100-corporations-do-not-produce-70-total-greenh/

It's unfortunately not true. Just widley quoted.

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[–] NaibofTabr 30 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (19 children)

The argument presented here is based on complete ignorance of the history of the human race.

Reason #1

The concept of property ownership is not a product of capitalism. This idea is literally as old as the oldest known civilization to keep written records, Mesopotamia.

Concern with property, its preservation, and its use shaped not only the Mesopotamian legal tradition but also economic and social practice, notably the ability to sell and to buy land and to transfer property through marriage and inheritance.

In Mesopotamian culture, property was owned by the state, by the temple, and by private families. Records show a distinction between movable property (material goods) and immovable property (land), and the selling, trading, repossessing, inheriting and transfer of all types of property.

Here is an example of a cuneiform tablet recording an agreement about the division of property.

There is even an equivalent of eminent domain:

When Hammurabi asked, “When is a permanent property ever taken away?” he was referring to the established customary legal principle that land was the permanent property of a family.

Hammurabi was not a capitalist. Babylon was not a capitalist nation.

Capitalism did not "invent legal privileges around property".

Reason #2

Conquest of territory happened long before capitalism ever existed. Colonialism was hardly a new concept.

Genghis Khan was not a capitalist. Alexander the Great was not a capitalist. Julius Caesar was not a capitalist. Napoleon Bonaparte was not a capitalist.

If you require citations for this part of my argument, I suggest you find a basic text on world history at your local library.

Conclusion

I'm not going to address the other "reasons" as they are faulty conclusions drawn from the previously addressed faulty premises.

I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history. This is such a bad take, it reeks of teenage anarchist and "money is the root of all evil" oversimplification.

[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Comparing property law under hammurabi with property law as it presently exists is absolutely laughably ridiculous and you know it is. You should take your capitalist apologia elsewhere.

[–] NaibofTabr 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I have made no apology for capitalism. If this is what you got from what I wrote, then you have trouble with reading comprehension.

I did not make a comparison between Mesopotamian property law and present property law. My point was that private ownership of property is a function of human society literally as old as recorded history, as well as the idea of legal privileges around property ownership.

Because the cartoon is based on the premise that these ideas come from capitalism, the entire argument is faulty.

I'll quote from my original post:

I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history.

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[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 7 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It's a bit disingenuous arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn't.

I mean the terms capitalism and colonialism are both coined way after the practice of those systems. I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.

Colonialism is the same, as you seem to intuit, considering other people and subduing them didn't need a philosophical framework in order for it to be enacted.

In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists. They profit of the labour of others.

There's a reason you're unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you're moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.

[–] fkn@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

This is such a weird take... how far removed from reality are you to actually believe that authoritarian feudalism is a form of capitalism?

Wealth accumulation is not capitalism. Capitalism enables wealth accumulation, but the opposite isn't true in the slightest.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

[–] NaibofTabr 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (7 children)

arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn't.

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion. Yes, capitalism is new in comparison to Mesopotamian culture, and therefore the idea of property ownership. No, it's not new in comparison to European colonialism.

I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.

I have never heard or read any theories that try to make an argument like this. I would be very interested if you had some that you could point me to, but offhand this seems like it would require major stretching of the definition of capitalism in order to make recorded events fit into it. I think it would mostly be an exercise in confirmation bias.

Accumulation of wealth is not inherently capitalism, nor is simply profiting from another's labor. This definition is so broad that it would make anyone in history who ever acquired anything that they did not previously own into a capitalist.

There's a reason you're unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you're moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.

Which other arguments am I unwilling to entertain, and which goalposts am I moving?

My argument is, as from the beginning, that the concept of private ownership of property and legal rights attached to such is not born of capitalism but is in fact as old as recorded history. Because the conclusions in the cartoon depend on this initial faulty idea, the whole thing is nonsense.

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[–] SCB@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.

I'd love to see your citations and reasoning on this, assuming it doesn't fall into "capitalism is when anyone owns anything or sells anything"

Because this

In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists

Is ridiculous.

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[–] theUnlikely@sopuli.xyz 15 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Am I having a stroke or does the first sentence make no sense? Shouldn't it be more instead of less? If a company always sells for less than the cost to produce, it'll go out of business rather quickly I'd think. Obviously there are temporary strategies like this that are used to beat competitors, but that's not what this is talking about.

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (8 children)

I think you just have it misunderstood. The comic assumes that you are the laborer, not the capitalist. As the image at this part of the infographic shows, from the perspective of the laborer, you are paid $5 for an item that is sold on the market for $50

[–] Robert7301201@slrpnk.net 12 points 2 years ago (12 children)

Yes, the image is correct, but I think theUnlikely was refering to the text "Capitalism exists by selling the value you produce for less than your labor costs."

It's backwards, it should be the value you (the laborer) produce is sold for more than than your labor costs.

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[–] escaped_cruzader@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (41 children)

The state is violent and community is violent and privacy is violent

Can anyone come up with an ideology that is not violent and can actually be implemented in the real world with real actors that aren't smelling roses and giving out hugs?

[–] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (23 children)

Side note, any ideology that claims your neighbors are the enemy aren't worth a damn.

What is your criteria for "can actually be implemented in the real world"? This varies by the individual. I need to know what your perspective on this is. Could you explain why capitalism isn't violent?

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[–] kicksystem@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (22 children)

One way to save species is by not eating animals. Welcome downvoters. I know you dislike hearing the truth, because you like your taste pleasure above animal suffering.

https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#key-insights-on-the-environmental-impacts-of-food

[–] Gloomy@mander.xyz 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

You are speaking truth, going vegan has one of the highest possible personal impacts. Eating animals is one of the main reasons for the massive land use, since we need it manly to feed animals, therefore it is reducing biodiversity.

Personaly, I don't think the second part of your comment is sensible. Beeing aggressiv and making accusations (even if warented) will not change peoples minds but make them defend themself. But again, that's just my view.

(edit to reword a sentence)

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[–] rainerloeten@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Personal responsibilities and actions are important ofc but pale in comparison to systematic, structural change that is needed. E.g. a few people significantly reducing their diet of animal products or going vegan is great (hence I did it), but as long as slaughtering and abusing animals is subsidized by billions from the state level this won't have a large affect :/

BP's carbon footprint propaganda did a lit of damage.

[–] kicksystem@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Agreed, but if you use that point not to make a change yourself you are still part of the problem, not the solution. Systemic change happens because enough individuals have made the change themselves. These are two sides of the same coin. We can not expect a change to happen that we ourselves don't support.

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