this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2025
43 points (95.7% liked)

Europe

6727 readers
826 users here now

News and information from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in other communities.
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
  10. Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.

(This list may get expanded as necessary.)

Posts that link to the following sources will be removed

Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com

(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)

Ban lengths, etc.

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the primary mod account @EuroMod@feddit.org

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
federalreverse@feddit.org
poVoq@slrpnk.net
anzo@programming.dev
EuroMod@feddit.org
43
Anti-immigrant rallies staged across Poland (www.bbc.com)
submitted 2 days ago by schizoidman@lemmy.zip to c/europe@feddit.org
28 comments fedilink hide all child comments
top 28 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 19 points 2 days ago

Russia has been spreading misinformation in Poland - a strong supporter of Ukraine - since the first trains of refugees arrived from Ukraine.

The disinformation narratives - though often outright blunt and apparently false - appeal to certain sections of the population, especially to the far right.

For example, Russian disinformation has claimed that Polish children were being thrown out of cancer wards to make way for Ukrainians, that Ukrainians would take away Polish jobs (a false narrative that is also being spread in this thread btw), and much more. Some disinformation campaigns by Russia also tried to impersonate Poland's national statistics agency, asking citizens whether they would be personally willing to house more Ukrainian refugees.

This is part of a foreign influence campaign orchestrated against Poland and Europe, supported by a certain group here on Lemmy. All they aim at is to divide the people, undermine democracy under sometimes absurdely false claims.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The anti immigrant stance confuses me. I get that this is being used by bad actors to drive a wedge between people, but how is it that people can't see that migrants are needed to keep the standard of living?

The amount of working people compared to the elderly or sick is diminishing, so you either have immigrants, raise taxes, reduce welfare or raise retirement age.

To me, immigration seems like the obvious choice.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The fewer workers exist the higher the wages rise. Look at the compensation for people after pest waves.

Immigration allows the elite to avoid the consequences of their bad politics. If living conditions were good enough people would have children.

Now people are moved instead of moving production processes to where the people are.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The fewer workers exist the higher the wages rise. Look at the compensation for people after pest waves.

That's only true if either the work can't be moved elsewhere. The other option is that output drops to match the available workforce, like in Britain after brexit for fruits and vegetables for example.

Immigration allows the elite to avoid the consequences of their bad politics. If living conditions were good enough people would have children.

I don't mind better politics or living conditions, but look at the nordics. Best places in the world to have a kid and we still can't manage to have 2 kids per couple.

Now people are moved instead of moving production processes to where the people are.

That's been happening for the last 200 years, which is why most manufacturing is in China and other parts of Asia now. But if we want to keep people in work here we need workers, and there's not enough of us.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Best places in the world to have a kid and we still can’t manage to have 2 kids per couple.

So obviously not good enough. It doesn't have to be material, values or expectations could also be not good enough.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

One year paid leave per kid per parent, almost free child care, free health care, free dental for kids, free education up to and including university, both parents expected to be on leave, can't get fired for taking leave. Oh, and you get a government alimony of about €100 per month. This is for Sweden, other nordics might differ slightly.

Having kids in the nordics is insanely good, I don't know what else we could do.

If we didn't have immigration our population would decline, along with our living standards.

[–] plyth@feddit.org -1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

How easy is it to get housing for a family of 5? How is child care if a child is sick? How high is the expectation for women to lose weight after birth and look good?

If people have 2 children but not 3 then something is missing. It could be that a third child is simply too expensive, even though almost all resources were bought for the first two children. It could be that parents are already too old and don't want to lose more sleep. Maybe all TV shows just show two children.

There must be a reason. Enumerating good conditions says not much about what is missing.

[–] richardwonka@mas.to 1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

@plyth - What kind of a troglogdyte are you?
Or, to give the benefit of the doubt, have you celebrated your 12th birthday yet?

Your comments and _arguments_ are so inane to almost _have_ to be parody.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 hour ago

Then for sure you can tell me what is wrong instead of insulting me.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

How easy is it to get housing for a family of 5? How is child care if a child is sick? How high is the expectation for women to lose weight after birth and look good?

Housing obviously depends on where you want to live, but for the most part it's accessible, and you get handouts from the government if your salary isn't enough. Child care is free as I said, and you get paid if you need to stay home to take care of sick children. Not sure how to measure the expectation on women to look good, but I don't think it's a major factor in society.

If people have 2 children but not 3 then something is missing. It could be that a third child is simply too expensive, even though almost all resources were bought for the first two children. It could be that parents are already too old and don't want to lose more sleep. Maybe all TV shows just show two children.

People aren't having even 2 children, but for those that do have 3 or more, you get extra money from the government to cover extra cost.

What I'm saying is that there are massive incentives for parents here, but people aren't having children. We're having more than other countries, but no where near enough. So we need immigrants.

[–] plyth@feddit.org -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This is a material analysis. What do parents say why they don't want more children?

If Sweden is a society where people don't believe in a better future I think it's better to export the jobs instead of making more people live under those conditions.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sweden has one of the highest living standards in the world, and you think we should let that go just to avoid immigration? I hope I misunderstood, because that's just dumb

[–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

You didn't misunderstand but drew a conclusion. How happy are people if they don't want to have children?

If they are not happy why draw people out of countries where they are happy to have kids and make them live in a society where people are less happy?

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We're not forcing people to come here you know. Also the nordics are generally winning the "happiest country" award, so I don't get why you think people here aren't happy.

The decline in births is a global phenomenon. It's down everywhere except Africa, parts of Asia and parts of South America. I think 1-2 countries in S.America and a few more in Asia.

Wouldn't surprise me if countries will beg migrants to come in a decade or two.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I know the arguments. They sound reasonable. But if people get a year of vacation for making a baby, and they don't make a baby every other year then something is really bad about rising children.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You think having a newborn is a "vacation"? Oh dear.

Having a baby is risky for a woman, physically, financially, emotionally. Perhaps the outlook of the world isn't great either. Combine that with women realising that they have choices, that they don't have to have children, and you get the decline.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

physically, financially, emotionally

So the latter two can still be improved.

outlook of the world isn’t great either.

My argument

Immigration allows the elite to avoid the consequences of their bad politics. If living conditions were good enough people would have children.

I don’t mind better politics or living conditions, but look at the nordics. Best places in the world to have a kid and we still can’t manage to have 2 kids per couple.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

So the latter two can still be improved.

All three are vastly superior in most of the west compared to most of Africa, yet women in most, if not all, African countries have more kids than western women. Do you honestly think that's because they're happier? Women in Afghanistan have more babies than women in the nordics. Do you think it's better to be a women in Afghanistan?

My argument

Your argument makes no sense. Living standards are abhorrent in Afghanistan and fantastic in the nordics, generally speaking. It's not about the living standards.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 56 minutes ago (1 children)

Do you think it’s better to be a women in Afghanistan?

No. But if you give women the choice you have to create the conditions that having a baby is the best option.

It’s not about the living standards.

It is, if you give women the choice.

[–] CAVOK@lemmy.world 1 points 43 minutes ago (1 children)

No. But if you give women the choice you have to create the conditions that having a baby is the best option.

Assuming the freedom to choose, I don't think those conditions exist. I think that people that want children will have them, and people that don't won't. I think the new normal is a lower nativity.

It is, if you give women the choice.

In countries where women get to choose, nativity goes down. In Bangladesh the nativity dropped with improved living standards. There's a great video about it.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 22 minutes ago

I think that people that want children will have them, and people that don’t won’t.

Why should there be a fixed border? Improve material and emotional conditions for families and that border will shift.

In countries where women get to choose, nativity goes down.

Conditions in Sweden are best and still not good enough. Of course they go down in other countries.

[–] Frostbeard@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

Considering the polish diaspora all over Europe this is ironic...

[–] MantisToboggon@lazysoci.al 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

You guys should be busy replacing the screen doors on your submarines.

[–] Szewek@sopuli.xyz 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

We have 999 problems and migrants ain't one

[–] yoriaiko@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

do You mean, mentioned Konfederacja and the opposition Law and Justice party have only 999 members?

[–] Szewek@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 days ago

I wish...

[–] lemmus@szmer.info -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Migrants ain't one, because fortunately lawmakers were smart enough to not implement stupid German's migration act, and so let's just leave Poland as it was - non-desired no-migrants (illegal ofc) country

[–] Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 2 days ago

let's just leave Poland as it was - non-desired