Everyone told us he was a generational QB then we watched big games and he didn’t look like one. So it’s hard for us to buy in.
this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2023
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Yeah, just tired of the perpetual hype >burnout cycle. He has a faster throwing motion than Fields and seems to process faster (tho PAC 12 defenses are not great even by collegiate standards), but he shows a lot of the same red flags in terms of holding the ball forever. I don’t care if we draft him and maybe I’m just jaded, but I’d rather build a solid everything else and see what happens
Right, I think the biggest issue is that going into the season we were told “generational talent” and “can’t miss #1 pick” and then through watching the season he has just as many red flags as most 1st round QBs.
Some evaluators labeled him "generational" which led to a bit of a hate circle-jerk overcorrection as soon as he started struggling. He has strengths and weaknesses just like every other prospect, but Caleb is a lightning rod for hot takes because of who he is, where he plays, and how much he was hyped up.
For me it has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with the Bears Organization's track record with quarterbacks. This franchise has not shown any ability to develop a QB in the past 50 years, and I don't expect that to change. Many good QBs have come through Chicago only to leave a shell of what we were promised. I believe Caleb may be the next great NFL QB, however, I can't see that being true in Chicago.
The Bears Organization is built on a "defense first" mentality. And without a drastic change in coaching and management philosophy, we are not going to see that change anytime soon. Poles may be a smart GM, but would you trust Getsy, Eberflus, or any of the rest of the coaching staff to develop a young talent like Williams? How would you feel about having a new QB and a new OC and/or HC? Do you really trust the McCaskey's to hire the best coach for that young talented QB? Because I DON'T.
The bears only drafted one early first round pick for a QB, the others are Rex who is a late round pick and fields who dropped hard in the draft and was only drafted by a desperate Ryan pace. Good teams keep trying to draft their QB and not cling on to bust qbs
For me it has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with the Bears Organization's track record with quarterbacks. This franchise has not shown any ability to develop a QB in the past 50 years, and I don't expect that to change. Many good QBs have come through Chicago only to leave a shell of what we were promised. I believe Caleb may be the next great NFL QB, however, I can't see that being true in Chicago.
This narrative has been said for many years and is utterly flawed and is done to cope with our QB not panning out. The same way people said we were ruining Mitch! he’ll go be a star somewhere else are doing the same with Fields. Those 2 can’t play the QB position, I don’t care if they were on the Eagles/49ers.
The Bears have drafted literally 1 QB in the top 10 since Jim McMahon (Trubisky) and have only drafted 5 QBs in the 1st round since 1960 - McMahon, Harbaugh, McNown, Grossman, Trubisky, and Fields.
Also none of these guys were really great prospects, McMahon 2nd QB selected, Harbaugh 4th QB selected, McNown 5th QB selected, Grossman 4th QB selected, Trubisky was the 1st QB selected, but also played like 13 games in college, and then Fields 4th QB selected.
This idea that we’re drafting premier talent and ruining them is so false and our QB “luck” is what every franchise has gone through.
I'm in no way saying we have had bad luck. I believe we have had plenty of serviceable QBs over the years. What the team has lacked, and still does (but is getting better), is a support system. In Lovie's era we had the defense, but not a reliable offensive line. We even had the weapons under Trestman, but the offensive live was a sieve. Recently, the team management has started to pay attention to the offensive line, but at the expense of the defense.
In my mind we currently need a lot of pieces to be a decent team. Our secondary on defense while serviceable isn't deep enough. I feel like we need one to two more DBs. On the DLine we just picked up a great addition in Sweat, but we need another threat up front so we can take the pressure off the DBs. That is at least 3 players on defense to get us where we need to be to be an average team in the league. On offense we still need two offensive linemen. We are have seen over the past few years how important having a healthy OLine is and having them all on the same page because they have experience working together will only help make the offense better. We also need a WR1 or WR2. I know we picked up Moore, but he can't be our only weapon downfield. We either need a better WR1 to take his place and make him compete to earn back his WR1 position, or a better WR2 to support him and take some of the attention away from the defenses to free Moore up.All that said, we need more than just a QB to make this team better.
But recently, people are calling for coaches and managers to be fired. We need to have some continuity from this franchise and if we are yelling to fire our Offensive Coordinator, our Head Coach, or even our General Manager, we are not going to see the change that that coach (or GM) envisions for the team. If we as a fanbase want to see our Head Coach or Offensive Coordinator fired, then we need to have faith in our franchise to find a better one to replace them with. What I was saying in my original comment is, I don't trust our franchise to pick a better OC, HC, or GM. And if we draft the best QB in the draft with a Top 5 Pick, and then they are coached by another Getsy, Lazor, Helfrich, Loggions, Gase, etc. we will be right back on the QB train again because we will still be either throwing screen passes or running the ball on 2nd an 8+ because they don't have the balls call a pass play and throw the ball downfield. We will all be right back where we are now bitching and moaning about how this team can't develop QB talent. And the thing is, it's not a QB issue. It is a team issue.
I propose we trade down away from the QBs and pick up talent on both sides of the ball to build around. Get the DB or two that we need. Grab a DLineman. Grab a pair of WRs, an OT/G maybe even a Center that we need. Maybe pickup a TE that can bailout our QB when they are in the redzone or catch a pass on 3rd down past the sticks. We have a ton of cap space available and we need to find the players to pay it to. The most cost effective way to do that is through the draft. That way when out team is ready in a year or two we can pick up our QB and they can succeed like CJ is doing down in Houston.
There's also a lot of dubious reporting about him which adds fuel to the fire. Stuff like him "not wanting to play for certain teams" or "wanting equity in the team he's drafted to"
The reporting stated that his dad was saying these things, which is neither a defense of the reporting itself or those reading it. Just because his dad is saying it doesn’t mean Caleb actually thinks it. But it is still concerning to have such a chaotic presence so close to who you would bet your franchises future on (The Ball family)
To me, the far bigger issues are what he has shown his own character to be while playing and that many of his playing weaknesses are the same as Fields.
He plays almost nothing like Fields - why the fuck do I keep seeing this idiotic nonsense?
He absolutely does not have the same weaknesses as Fields.
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There's also a lot of people who saw him demonstrate immature behavior. In the Notre Dame game he was yelling at his teammates, blaming them for his own shortcomings. You could hear him and see him doing this throughout the game. It wasn't hyping them up, it was him refusing to take accountability for why things weren't working. That's been a keystone trait of his...when things don't go exactly right from the start of a game he doesn't know how to adjust.
In two other games since then he's had reactions where in one he sat on the bench refusing to cheer his D on/pouting, and the second game he, literally and not figuratively, ran into the stands and cried to his Mom over a loss. It's also worth noting this wasn't a few tears, but heaving breaths and tears to the point his Mom covered his face up.
There are more than just dubious reports that raise red flags with his behavior and maturity. He appears to be a lower ceiling/lower floor version of Fields but with maturity/leadership issues. He comes from a much weaker division but is playing worse.
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The realization that "he plays like literally a human anus every time he plays against a ranked opponent" set in.
When the weakest defense he'll face in the NFL is stronger than the strongest defense he's played in college, it's a major red flag that he turns into a pumpkin at the slightest hint of adversity.
Plus he's a locker room cancer.
So will you admit you never watched a game of his before this year?
So will you admit you never watched a game of his before this year?
What a person does when faced with adversity tells you a LOT more about them than what they do when everything is going right.
Have you or not?
I've watched tape of his play from years before this one. He's 100% guaranteed to never get a second contract in the NFL.
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Not the best place to use the word “literally.”
Because nearly everybody in this sub has convinced themselves that they’re pro scouts and can accurately predict his development/career path, based purely on his college tape.
~~college tape~~
Almost guarantee they're basing it off his box scores more than anything. Or from watching one game on a drunken Saturday afternoon. Very few on here are actually watching the All-22 and breaking down the plays, but ask them and they'll still give you a very definitive analysis on his strengths, weaknesses, and character.
Stroud, Dobbs & Purdy are proof that no one has a clue when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks.
Which is why you need to take as many bites at the apple as you can get, even after you get it right
In terms of the QB position I think your average redditor is pretty close to as accurate as a pro scout.
No, not concerned. He’s easily the best prospect since Lawrence, and quite possibly since Luck. The bears would be idiots if he’s there and we don’t draft him.
The fans hating him are just showing how little they know about draft prospects.
He’s not a better prospect than Lawrence, come on…
You saying that shows how little YOU know about draft prospects.
Could he wind up better? Sure. Mahomes did. You can argue Herbert and Allen have too.
But as it stands he’s NOT the level of prospect of Lawrence & Luck. He’s more of that Kyler, Burrow, Cam level which is just a tier below. Still a damn good level.
He's not on the same tier as either Luck or Lawrence. Luck was an S-tier, actually generational type talent. Lawrence was considered an A-tier prospect who had been recruited and followed heavily since High School. Williams is a step below both of them in the B-tier. He could be very good in the NFL, but he's far from generational or a sure thing. He's in your Kyler Murray tier.
It’s like these dumbasses posting stats all the time don’t actually watch any of his games.
He’s repeatedly come up small in big games. He holds the ball forever (like Fields), is kind of undersized, and generally hasn’t played very well this season. Add in all the prima donna shit and he’s definitely earned the scrutiny.
Like with Bryce Young we need to look past pure numbers when looking at a college QB.
He's repeatedly come up small in big games
he had 4 total touchdowns and 300+ passing yards vs an undefeated Washington, and outdueled Michael Penix. His team still lost because the USC defense gave up 52 points.
It's ridiculous how Caleb detractors constantly make up shit about the guy, when he's the main reason why USC isn't complete dogshit this year. The last time that USC defense didn't give up more than 30+ points was in September.
generally hasn't played very well this season
If 2nd in total passing yards, and tied 2nd in total passing touchdowns while throwing 4 interceptions is bad, then damn the Bears should look elsewhere I guess.
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There’s a lot to like in terms of his traits, and the same was true of Bryce Young. I don’t think Young was highly thought of because of his stats alone. His play this year is definitely concerning but I don’t think we can write him off after 10 games.
With Williams it’s definitely fair to be critical of his play (at times) and some of the optics haven’t been great (in terms of body language/attitude) but there is still a ton to like about him as a QB prospect. Arm talent, pocket awareness and mobility, his ability to make off-platform throws, etc. I think this sub has gone a little overboard with labeling him as a bust already but that’s just my opinion.
Fields was not known for holding the ball too long in college. His scouting reports did ding him for slow operation, but that's not the same thing.
Actually, go look at the weaknesses on fields' pre-draft scouting reports, it's uncanny how accurate they are to what his problems have been in the pros:
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/justin-fields/32004649-4576-9504-963d-c33127e80752
Fields, however, did have superlative college results his senior year. Like you said, we need to look past numbers when looking at college QBs. College results do not tell you anything about how a QB is going to play in the NFL.
A college qb who did have a reputation for holding the ball too long had this under his weaknesses pre-draft:
"Too eager to go big game hunting Ravenous appetite for the explosive play can also bring unwanted trouble"
His name was Patrick Mahomes and he turned out alright.
Diva? Meh, most elite athletes are. As long as he channels it into work ethic, which by all reports he has, I don't care.
The only legit criticism here is his height. He's not Bryce Young levels of short but it would be nice if he were a smidge taller. He's taller than Russ Wilson or Drew Brees, so I don't think it's disqualifying. He's an inch shorter than Aaron Rodgers.
But he does have a tendency to think he can stand up through hits and shrug them off, and he's nowhere near big enough to do that against NFL defensive lineman, so he will need to remove that from his habits.
I’m betting that when the Combine comes around Williams measures closer to 6’ flat than 6’1”. Will be interesting to watch.
Are a lot of NFL players divas? Absolutely. Are many of them rookie QBs? No. Diva QBs tend to have serious issues in locker rooms. It’s one thing to be a diva WR. QB is different, especially if you come in with this much hype and the first overall pick.
The Fields weaknesses were spot on.
Here’s some of the weaknesses poached from a few sites for Caleb.
SCOUTING REPORT: WEAKNESSES
- Doesn't have the prototypical size for the position standing just 6-1 and weighing in at 215 lbs - may be an injury risk going forward especially considering his play style
- At USC Williams plays in a simplistic offense mainly consisting of one-read concepts. He would perform in a traditional pro offense is uncertain
- Has played exclusively in the shotgun - at the moment he would be a work in progress as a dropback passer
- His mechanics are hit-or-miss and his footwork needs cleaning up - although most of these issues are hidden by his arm talent
- Williams tends to hold the ball loosely and away from his body, putting him at risk for strip sacks.
Weaknesses
- Struggled to play within the offense’s timing, sometimes due to poor blocking and other times because he wanted to extend the play for bigger opportunities. Williams must find a better balance when the game flow calls for it.
- Prone to getting happy feet and breaking out of the pocket before it’s necessary.
- Can find a better balance between being a playmaker and taking the easier throw to extend drives. This can become a bigger weakness due to a lack of anticipation or pre-snap understanding of coverages.
- His size is not ideal, lacking height and a fuller frame than his peers.
Where he needs to improve: Williams takes unnecessary sacks at times. It's hard to blame him for not giving up on plays, because he's so incredibly creative and productive in those situations. However, there are examples when throwing the ball away is the best option at his disposal. He's a gifted passer on underneath touch throws, drive throws to all three levels and deep throws over the top. The one throw that gives him some trouble is the layer throw. He can be too flat at times on throws where he needs to place the ball over the linebacker and under the safety. I think we'll see him improve in both areas with added reps.
So if that holds up as accurately as the Fields criticism does it could be a real problem. He will not survive in the NFL turning every play into a scramble drill. And he needs to play under center and one read concepts are not a thing in the pros.
Show me a college qb prospect who doesn't need to adjust to the complexities and speed of pro offense
That’s a bit reductive. Some college offenses will present a steeper learning curve than others. The USC offense is particularly far afield from what tends to work in the NFL.
Also the defenses in the PAC-12 are so far away from what QBs face in the SEC or B1G (until next year, lol).
I hope he’s the next Mahomes and that the Bears land him. That would be amazing. But my main issue is with the constant talk in this sub from people who think all criticism of Caleb (or Fields) is completely unfounded and can be blamed on someone else.
👆more proof that Bears fans have no idea how to properly evaluate a QB
Because we can't have nice things
Pretty much every analyst and scout has him ranked as a top tier prospect. He’s not Luck or Lawrence but he’s probably in the next tier with the likes of Burrow or Kyler. He’s a better prospect than Fields coming out. Bears would be idiots not to take him.
Only concern for me is that he appears to be a little bit of a diva.
I think the recent smoke around potential diva tendencies has been the biggest contributor. People see a guy who's reportedly gearing up to big-time NFL front offices before he even sets foot in the league, and they want him to fail and be humbled. He's a very good quarterback prospect, but if the stuff we've heard is true, it'd be more fun to root against him than for him.
Some people want the bears to take MHJ and others are just perpetual Fields dick riders. Personally idk if he's all that, he certainly got waxed by ND and didn't look good against Oregon, but the Bears will definitely need a new QB at some point and maybe he's the next try.
Prospect fatigue mostly. People do this every time there's a no. 1 prospect clearly identified two years in advance.
The same people obsessed with his stats vs top 25 defenses were the ones who decided that Peyton Manning never beating Florida meant that Ryan leaf was a better prospect
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Just field truthers not wanting to admit their guy is a bust and we need to move on
Complete headcase, he borders on delusional. Not a leader by any means. Doesn’t seem to be liked by teammates. Everyone nowadays has off script and different arm angle throws. I’m not impressed. I’d rather keep fields or draft maye or penix.
This sub’s hive mind hates everyone
Dude is ass who never shows up in big games. Im baffled most of you guys still want him. Let me repeat dude is ass. Fields is ass. Drake Maye is ass. Penix is ass. Grab MHJ an oline man, and wait till next year. Give fields another shot and pray we are wrong about him. Tua put it together, pray fields can with a new coach. Im mind blown anyone thinks this limp dick Williams is any good.
So many people have decided wins and losses are a quarterback exclusive stat, as if a quarterback could ever be good enough to compensate for a missing defense.
Honestly, because he’s rather short. His performance this season isn’t an issue because as I understand it USC doesn’t have too much talent so he’s been doing as well as he can on his own, but I’ve become convinced that successful NFL quarterbacks - with some exceptions - have to be over 6’2”.
I downvote all Caleb posts automatically. It’s ridiculous to be banging our heads against the wall of the draft since day 1 of the season.
This sub is so annoyingly toxic, this is 100% a reasonable take but somehow has been downvoted to the ground.
I think a lot of the shortcomings of Caleb recently are mainly that he's trying to do too much, which is not a bad thing, you can really attribute it to his defense being unable to stop anyone
Arrogant, Cocky.
Because his daddy won't let him play for a bad team and he only plays bad defenses. Once he plays a school with any kind of defense he sucks
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