Patient Gamers
A gaming community free from the hype and oversaturation of current releases, catering to gamers who wait at least 12 months after release to play a game. Whether it's price, waiting for bugs/issues to be patched, DLC to be released, don't meet the system requirements, or just haven't had the time to keep up with the latest releases.
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Amazing when done right like Diablo II or Minecraft !
When done well it greatly expands the game’s replayability.
When done poorly it feels bland and boring.
I'm sure they can be done right, but I've never seen them done right, so I'm not for them. Everything starts to feel the same very quickly.
Not even Diablo II? I think that's done pretty well.
I like Shattered Pixel Dungeon, The Binding of Isaac and Lethal Company, so sure they’re great when done right!
They can add a lot of replayability, but they can just as well very quickly make your game suck more than if it had purposefully made levels. (I think a prominent example of bad proc-gen in general is Skyrim’s radiant quests.)
It puts all the weight of the game being fun on the gameplay mechanics/loop. For number-crunching genres like roguelikes it works. If a Zelda game did it, it would suck. I put a couple hundred hours in Deep Rock Galactic, so I believe it can work under the right circumstances.
If a Zelda game did it, it would suck.
While I don't find the idea particularly appealing personally, there are modified versions of Zelda games that randomize various aspects of the game (like what items are in which chests) and apparently a decent number of people do actually enjoy playing them. (Usually not on a first playthrough though!)
I enjoy A Link to the Past Randomizer, but primarily because it adds replayability to a game I'm already so familiar with. ALttPR becomes a puzzle of which chests/dungeons have the highest probability of containing progression items. Calculating that optimized routing in realtime while racing against a clock is fun. Also figuring out the best way to deal with a boss that you already know well, but now you have an unexpected equipment loadout is fun to me.
However. If I were to play a new game I didn't have any familiarity with and its item placement and/or map layout was procedurally generated, I don't think I would enjoy a first playthrough. I don't enjoy variety just for the sake of variety. The proc-gen would have to have some known parameters that allow me to strategize in how I approach it in order to not seem arbitrary. If I didn't enjoy the first playthrough of such a game, I might not be motivated to learn enough to enjoy future runs.
That's why I think I don't love Spelunky or Slay the Spire despite loving games that play similarly like Cave Story and Magic the Gathering respectively. I think I could love these games if I could reasonably plan ahead, but I feel those games have too much variance and the outcomes feel arbitrary as a result. Though that could just be my lack of dedication to understanding the bounds of the generated content.
Ah, I've fallen for the classic blunder :)
To be fair, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding what works and what doesn't. I guess it's possible for every situation to have some edge cases, though
Zelda 1 randomizer is popular, and it's all about procedural generation of dungeons and procedural assignment of items to locations. It's not as well designed as the original Zelda 1, not by a long shot, but it combines the familiar gameplay of Zelda 1 with the novelty of procedural generation.
well, I'm subscribed to every roguelike muni on lemmy, soooooo
I don't think I've ever seen "community" abbreviated as "muni"
It starts with us!
If the game has good combat and good loot, rng dungeons means I can fight and play loot lottery forever. When encounteres are 100% scripted, with cutscenes or platforming in the mix, it gets old fast...
I think that like a great many game mechanics, the fact that it's been done badly many times doesn't mean that it can't be done well.
Hard to put a yes or no on this.
Yes, really really yes, if it's done right and it works well for the game.
No, really really no, if it's done wrong and it doesn't work well for games.
don't matter to me. procedurally generated, AI generated, hand curated. it's all the same imo.
is the game itself fun? is the story good? are the game mechanics fun? that's what matters to me more then how the level gets built. granted you don't wanna see copy/paste nonstop, that would be kinda annoying but still goes back to the game as a whole..is it fun
take Morgenstern for example, they do it. levels are kinda bleh, but I'm not there for the level specifically, I'm there for the gameplay, monsters and the loot!
It’s all the same? A puzzle dungeon from Zelda could never be generated with the algorithms we have now.
the same in the sense of fun.
That's how I felt about Shadow Warrior 2
i think they are great when they are able to provide variety in terms of gameplay, challenge etc, as opposed to just being different layouts. My first thought is roguelikes and roguelites - Some of my favorite games are Binding of Isaac and Spelunky, which do it really well, and I still play the original roguelikes like Angband sometimes.
Depends on the game.
I think that they have been used effectively in games like Starbound and Terraria or many roguelikes and roguelites.
I think that there have been some games where they do not work well.
Starfield has a beautiful terrain generator, but different terrain doesn't really change gameplay, nor does combat really scale up to making use of very large maps, so you have the ability to explore infinite expanses of planets, but it doesn't really provide much in gameplay terms. Aside from finding a cluster of useful resources near each other for an outpost, which isn't that interesting from a gameplay standpoint and doesn't need most of the terrain generator's functionality, it's mostly just cosmetic.
I think that they work best where how you play the game changes substantially based on the mix of features of the dungeon. Then throwing a new mix each time at the player helps keep things interesting.
I'm pretty easy to please, as long as procgen fits within the overall vibe of the game.
My only hang-up is when there aren't enough unique/modular enough nodes and I can recognize walking through the same room several times in one dungeon. If that happens, I'm not playing your game for more than 20 hours no matter how much fun it is.
Procgen should increase novelty. If you're just rearranging the order of parts A, B, and C, that's bad.
I hate playing on a sponge. Handcrafted all day.
I find them really boring, especially in RPG contexts. The difference is night and day when you walk into a handcrafted dungeon that has situational storytelling, creative direction, and ambiance that conveys a specific feeling. Bethesda games do this exceptionally well, for example.
Handcrafting a world also gives meaning to exploration; when I explore a procedurally generated world I feel like I'm just walking around aimlessly, looking for just another treasure chest or enemy to fight. But in a hand-crafted world, there are specific things to look for, situational stories to be told, or even secrets to find that the creator hid. That's a lot more fun to explore than walking around in a glorified geometric algorithm
Absolutely essential for the full experience in a retro roguelike.
Usually repetitive and boring in 3D.
I‘m fine with it if the actual layout doesn’t matter, like in Hades where it’s just room after room.
There's no shortage of games that have been successfully built around it. This is the whole basis for Rogue (1980). Games that are designed to be replayable would be far too repetitive if you only had a handful of premade levels.
But there also no shortage of games that didn't feel like they used it well, games that could've been significantly improved with hand-crafted levels. I played Persona 5 before 4, and this stuck out to me like a sore thumb when I went back to 4.
Generally, if level design is a core focus of the game, then the levels gotta be designed. But if maps are just a backdrop for a more mechanics-focused game, randomization may help those mechanics shine.
love em. i'm actually working as a programmer for a game right now where procedural level generation is one of my main foci. sure, like any game system, it can be done poorly, and it's not everyone's cuppa tea, but i like it.