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This will just reduce my choices in the future, because "a car made in North America" at this point in time is a woefully sub-par product and I'm disinclined to continue rewarding mediocrity, and wholly opposed to any approach espoused by the Americans.
Tying our industry to backwards focussed USA isn't going to help Canadians move into the future. Do we want EVs or do we want to re-open coal plants for Trumps pals?
Best I can do is rolling coal in a RAM 1500 through the 401 tunnel for $100B. 🤭
If Chinese manufactures can exceed Canadian standards, provide spare parts for a minimum of 10 years from the date of manufacture, AND allow all software to be audited for both safe function and security. Then sure. Bring on the cheap EVs.
(But not even our current domestically produced vehicles meet those requirements)
Make the factories here, would solve most of that and take care of Unifor's workers.
It's shit like this that makes it so hard to support unions.
The North American auto industry has failed miserably to produce vehicles people want, instead opting for high-cost monster trucks with low visibility and high fatality ratings. They deserve to be decimated by companies producing smaller, more efficient, and safer vehicles, but no. They'll have to pry these monster abominations from our cold dead nation instead.
Unions are proving time and again that they can't be trusted to be on the right side of critical issues like climate if it means some people might be out of a job that kills people.
I get the frustration but unions are generally on our side of economic issues. Unifor doesn't care what autos we produce, EVs, big or small. Or whether their members produce autos at all. They care about Unifor members having well paying jobs through getting a larger share of the corporate profits they generate. This is in the majority of Canadians' interest. That money is recycled throughout the economy and it lifts other wages too.
Whenever the interest of a particular union in an industry comes in contradiction with the rest of us, it's important to keep in mind that those workers interest isn't the same as the corporatiom they work for, and that if we throw them under the bus because they aren't unionized, they'd make their anger known at the election polls. This is where considering their interest being distinct from their bosses is useful. We can and should take care of workers whose industries harm the rest of us. Unions can actually be allies in this. If we make workers whole, through concrete programs of retraining, retirement, we'd face a lot less resistance to tackling harmful industries. We could even get productive cooperation and spare us the backlash come election time. Of course that requires dialing down free market fundamentalism a few notches.
The union said lifting the surtax now would risk undoing recent investments in vehicle assembly, battery production and critical minerals. It is asking Ottawa to extend the surtax for at least 24 months, broaden it to include EV and battery components, and reinstate federal EV rebates restricted to Canadian and North American-built vehicles. The union also wants stronger enforcement against goods made with forced labour. Unifor said Canada should align its approach with the United States and Mexico. The U.S. has combined tariffs of 127.5 per cent on Chinese EVs and plans to restrict connected car technology by 2027, while Mexico raised its EV import tariffs to 50 per cent this year after Chinese vehicles surged to 70 per cent of its market.
I don't disagree that China is going to flood our markets with cheap EVs, with huge impacts on our own auto plants.
But holy fuck guys, we just dropped our previous pledge of 30% EV by 2026. What's the plan - indefinitely push off electrification? We're getting lapped by China on renewable and electrification technology, and its only going to get worse if we dont FORCE companies to electrify and move faster.
On top of that, the US companies are all starting to move their car manufacturing back inside the US. Our auto sector is in serious trouble regardless of our move here, and continuing to put our eggs in the US basket is a mistake, IMO.
Keep a 50% tariff, which still places these cars into an affordable price point here. Given the problems the China auto sector is in, they'll likely still move cars with that rate. Then earmark those tariffs to retrain those auto workers, or support a canadian EV manufacturer.
Nah, raise tariffs to make at least partially up the unfair subsidies in China and support the Canadian EV industry (the issue of forced labour, intransparent Chinese supply chains, and other things make the situation of buying Chinese cars more questionable, no?). I think the union is right.
There's no unfair subsidies in this context. Every country subsidizes their auto sector to one degree or anotber and there's no good distinction of what's fair and what isn't. We have subsidized American autos plenty. We just recently subsidized the buildout of VW and Stellantis factories by billions.
Our manufacturers don't charge the prices they do because of labour. Labour is under 15% of the cost of a vehicle. They (we, I work for one) have increased prices consistently above inflation for decades. They've eliminated the all lower cost models. Ford doesn't make Fiesta, Focus or any sedan in NA anymore. They make only SUVs and trucks and the starting prices are way higher than what was on the market just 10 years ago. That's because there's higher margins in larger vehicles, something openly reiterated internally (and sometimes externally). This is a huge problem because unlike Europe, we are extremely car-dependent. As a result this serves as a significant drag on our economy along with housing and some other sectors. Most of the profits are exported to major shareholders in the US.
Lowering auto prices would have dramatically positive effect on our economy, while hurting the auto sector (me) a bit. As shit has gotten proper ridiculous:
Using AutoTrader’s price index from late last year, Ratehub’s VP of Insurance Matt Hands used its average new car price of $66,550, and average used car price of $35,754 and sought to find the middle ground.
But we know the solution since we've used it in the past. We have to get foreign manufacturers to build factories here. Just like we did with the Japanese. Then workers affected at Ford and GM could move to BYD and Leapmotor, while still being protected by Unifor and the Canada Labour Code. And we get to keep the ability to make moderb vehicles in case of international disputes. If Ford and GM refuse to build something competitive of course.
Before any of my #fuckcars comrades chime in - yes we should put a shit ton of money in mass transit instead, if at all possible.
There’s no unfair subsidies in this context.
Even BYD itself (as well as other Chinese car makers) admits this, with one of its executives literally warning of a "bloodbath" in China's domestic car market.
Lowering auto prices would have dramatically positive effect on our economy,
No, not everything is about price.
We must even think of outright banning imports as Chinese factories tied to Xinjiang forced labour feed supply chains for practically every major carmaker – and tariffs won’t stop that.
China is heavily opposing transparent supply chains, and this is for a reason. I don't want a car made by slaves, not matter how cheap it is.
Even BYD itself (as well as other Chinese car makers) admits this, with one of its executives literally warning of a "bloodbath" in China's domestic car market.
I'm aware of the sitiatuion and my reading is not that BYD's execs are complaining that they're getting too much money from subsidies. Instead they're complaining that the subsidies have created an ultracompetitive market which drives prices down. Generally what's bad for a firm's exec in a competitive market is good for the rest of the economy, in every country. It means people aren't overpaying for the product, paying for profits that often aren't reinvested into the local economy.
Agreed, not everything is about price. However some prices in some countries drive regime changes. The rising cost of living has driven many Canadians to homelessness. After housing, transport and groceries are the second and third most significant living expenses for Canadians. That's where vehicle (and gas) prices come in. We very narrowly avoided electing the Canadian version of the fascists running the US right now. We did a lot of work and spent good money to avoid it. But nothing has changed for the better yet and Canadians are not less willing to get maple maga in office. Some polls already show them leading and we are likely to get another election within 2 years. And they will bust unions, make working conditions worse across the economy, increase oil and gas subsidies, steamroll indigenous people, and go after all sorts of vulnerable social groups. American exploitation of Canadian labour and resources would increase. And so you see, all else being equal, Canadian vehicle prices are related with Canadian labour and other rights, and they're going in the wrong direction.
[@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca)
If you talk about cheap Chinese cars you need to talk about forced labour in China and Chinese supply chains.
And, no, what is bad for a firm in a competitive market is not generally good for the rest of the economy. This makes no economic sense.
But most importantly, if you talk about cheap Chinese cars you need to talk about forced labour in China and Chinese supply chains.
And, no, what is bad for a firm in a competitive market is not generally good for the rest of the economy. This makes no economic sense.
Highly competitive markets approach perfect competition which means firms can't make significant profit over their costs. That means low prices and no economic rent which leaves more capital for expanding the economy elsewhere. Firms want to profit-maximize and and perfect competition prevents them from increasing their profits. Most of the profits above cost are collected by the exec layer and major shareholders. Hence what's bad for a firm's exec in a highly competitive market - low profit - is good for the rest of the economy - low prices. No energy to explain further, feel free to disagree.
But most importantly, if you talk about cheap Chinese cars you need to talk about forced labour in China and Chinese supply chains.
Why should I? I already said the solution for is is to get factories in Canada. That eliminates the assembly labour concern. As for the supply chains, that problem exists across all domestic automakers since they use the same supply chains. It's not going away anytime soon. If we manage to build some local supply chains as we've planned it would be reduced but unlikely eliminated. The only way to reduce the PRC supply chain usage in the near term is to reduce driving and vehicle sales. And that's not happening for many reasons. Car-dependency and strong auto industry among them. So there's no point talking about something that isn't changing. I'm focusing on what can change and how to avoid Canadian fascism. Maybe you make different value judgements but I've been Canadian for a very long time and I intend to spend the rest of my life here, so that's mine.
PS: Moral arguments are generally weaker than material self-interest arguments. A lot more people would respond positively to an argument about independence and self-sufficiency than one about the labour conditions in a foreign country. Temu's really popular in Canada.
That eliminates the assembly labour concern. As for the supply chains, that problem exists across all domestic automakers since they use the same supply chains.
No. This is not true. They don't use the same supply chains. This is outright misinformation that is unfortunately very widespread. Chinese EV makers' supply chains like BYD's are fully vertically integrated, meaning local -or any- suppliers can’t sell to BYD and other Chinese rivals. The Chinese companies import everything.
In addition, they fill their factories with Chinese migrant workers, meaning there are no jobs for locals either. And, again, the slave-like conditions are evident across the globe, just look at BYD's Brazilian plant that was shut down last year for exactly this reason. In Hungary, BYD is being filling hundreds of jobs with Chinese immigrants (according to Hungarian media close to the Orban-government, these people are housed in container-like shielded-off from the local population, a move that is typical for Chinese investments abroad).
It's amazing that you repeat the same stories over and again which have mostly nothing to do with the linked article, and/or is oversimplified or outright false, while whitewashing China which this report is about. Seems that unions are only good if/when they don't stand in China's way, right?
Wow, that's some seriously bad faith crap.