this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2025
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[–] flamingo_pinyata@sopuli.xyz 112 points 5 months ago (1 children)

All programming languages claim to be for humans. Doesn't make them good at it.

[–] amon@lemmy.world 45 points 5 months ago (2 children)
[–] metaStatic@kbin.earth 20 points 5 months ago

Hey babe, wanna kill all humans?

[–] idunnololz@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Im sorry but which humans were whitespace and brainfuck made for.

[–] edinbruh@feddit.it 5 points 5 months ago

For esolang nerds. They enjoy the existence of the language, not its usage

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago
[–] jdeath@lemm.ee 4 points 5 months ago

obviously the sadistic ones! those PLs certainly weren't made for the computer's benefit

[–] amon@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago
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[–] jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de 48 points 5 months ago (3 children)
[–] Shiggles@sh.itjust.works 30 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Making something to make humans suffer is still making it for humans

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[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

If anything, that only proves the point even harder.

[–] verstra@programming.dev 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Wtf. Go look at the examples. W. T. F.

[–] lurch@sh.itjust.works 26 points 5 months ago (3 children)

i don't think brainfuck or ook are actually meant for humans. more like against humans

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

They are very much aimed at humans.

Crafted to hurt humans, but still.

[–] Shapillon@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

imho they're still made for humans. But the goal is to discuss them rather than code with them n_n

[–] Skepticpunk@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Or Malbolge.

[–] A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world 25 points 5 months ago (4 children)

...there are languages that aren't written in plaintext???

[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 26 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] nichtburningturtle@feddit.org 25 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I take it back

I'm sorry

I'm so, so sorry

[–] nichtburningturtle@feddit.org 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

I'm going to retreat to my safe space and write some shim code in C now, thx

[–] anton@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I heard there was a programming language where you programmed a tree, that you could only manipulate manipulate in a "IDE" that looked a bit like Microsoft Word and saved the "source code" as a binary file.

Found the infos: https://youtu.be/vcFBwt1nu2Ut=479

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[–] 0ops@lemm.ee 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I've kinda noticed this block when working with non-developers attempting low-code and no-code platforms. Anecdotally, non-coders tend to assume that knowing how to code is the hard part of software development. It's really not though, there's tons of resources to learn any language you want for free, and cs students cover all of the basics in their first year. The actually hard part (well one of them) is knowing what to code: the data structures and algorithms. Pro_code, low-code, or no-code, there's just no way around not knowing how to design a working, efficient algorithm or a clean, scalable database schema. Ironically, for anything but the most trivial problems, the lack of maturity in low-code platforms tends to only make the algorithm harder to implement.

[–] vga@sopuli.xyz 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Though perhaps when AIs start actually coding, they're all going to just probably use the native instructions. Because why not?

[–] BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz 12 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Text code is overwhelming

Text is overwhelming (for me)

I like spaced out, low density information. I can process it better.

[–] JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago (4 children)

I wish I understood this point of view better. I crunch through information, so I want it to be densely packed. I'd love to know why and how this helps you so I can better help my peers that are like you?

[–] BatrickPateman@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I love how he said what he said and you dump this 5line paragraph on him 😘👌

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[–] paequ2@lemmy.today 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I only code in binary-encoded programming languages.

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Real programmers modulate their voice and scream precisely into the microphone such that the recorded audio file is valid machine code.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

A lot of people really have difficulty with maths and programming.

The way i imagine it, programming is something non-real, something metaphysical, or how you want to call it. And a lot of people even plainly reject that such a thing meaningfully exists. Think about how many people reject the existence of "spirits", "demons", or "god", based on nothing else but the argument that it is not tangible. Something similar is going on with maths and programming.

[–] Anti_Face_Weapon@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I like this only because it makes me feel like a wizard

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[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I think it's "learned helplessness", sadly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Like much of math, people are often eager to talk about the cool stuff and make it sound hard because they are proud they understood it. For a newcomer, this is just a brick in the face.

[–] Allero@lemmy.today 5 points 5 months ago

Exactly!

Literally everything we ever came up with is comprehensible by humans, and is likely to be comprehensible by a layman given enough time and making sure prerequisites are filled.

In fact, it takes a good explanation that would click with a given person's experience and level of expertise to make anyone understand anything.

It's just that sometimes people need that specific thing X, and normally it's needed to those who have some knowledge in another specific thing Y, and it gets expected that a person needing X knows Y (which is not necessarily true)

This is especially common in the world of computers. Everyone uses them, everyone has to troubleshoot them, but not everyone is the system administrator, to which 85% of the guides often seem to be addressed.

[–] someacnt@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago

People who know math make math sound hard? Eehh, that does not seem to track. Math can become incredibly difficult, and even the cryptic terminologies are a way to alleviate the difficulty.

[–] aesthelete@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

It took me looking at unfamiliar programming languages and realizing that I could read most of them without really knowing them for me to realize I probably could learn to at least read another language.

It's been years since then and I'm still probably shit at Spanish, but just like programming languages regular languages were made by humans to communicate with other humans, you're capable of understanding any of them given a reasonable amount of time and guidance.

[–] edinbruh@feddit.it 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

What is non-plain-tezxt code?

[–] amon@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

'Nocode', scratch, NODE-red, etc.

[–] PixelProf@lemmy.ca 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Maybe I'm an old fogey, but I usually hear more pushback against visual languages as being too finicky to actually create anything with and I usually advocate for a blending of them, like working in Godot and having nodes to organize behaviour but written scripts to implement it.

I really appreciate the talks from Bret Victor, like Inventing on Principle (https://youtu.be/PUv66718DII), where he makes some great points about what sorts of things our tooling, in addition to the language, could do to offload some of the cognitive load while coding. I think it's a great direction to be thinking, where it's feasible anyways.

Also, one reason folks new to programming at least struggle with text code is that they don't have the patterns built up. When you're experienced and look at a block of code, you usually don't see each keyword, you see the concept. You see a list comprehension in Python and instantly go "Oh it's a filter", or you see a nested loop and go "Oh it's doing a row/column traversal of a 2d matrix". A newbie just sees symbols and keywords and pieces each one together individually.

[–] insomniac_lemon@lemmy.cafe 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

like working in Godot and having nodes to organize behaviour but written scripts to implement it

That was the intent with Godot's (3.X) implementation of VS (Visual Scripting) but I think most people didn't like it (thus why it was gone in 4.X). The major flaw with that idea is that programmers probably don't want to work on VS and... is it really better than just components with exported script variables and either way well-documented code (especially with gdscript)? Also communication on desired effects.

VS should be easy for beginners, if it fails at that a huge amount of people who aren't in a team will find it to be useless. For comparison, UE's Blueprints are usually what people point as better than Godot's VS (which failed at discoverability due to lower-level workflow and IIRC wasn't fleshed out with organization either), so this wasn't strictly a problem with the idea of VS.

There are 3rd-party things now (Orchestrator, also Block Coding which generates gdscript) that might work better, though I don't know.

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[–] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 months ago

Programs are meant to be read by humans and only incidentally for computers to execute

[–] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

We're in x86 and we speak binary assembly in this architecture, goddammit.

[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 months ago

Assembly is just a high level language for people without a hole puncher

[–] amon@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

And guess who X86 was designed for.

Yes. Humans.

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